I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

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CoffeeCone
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I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

Post by CoffeeCone » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:24 am

Hi, can anyone explain to me a couple of things regarding LiveCode Community and the GPL?

1. If I decide to sell my application along with the source code, is the buyer allowed to re-sell it for whatever price without modification? Or is s/he only allowed to redistribute it for free?

2. I've read on the FAQs page that one of the ways to earn from the Community edition is to sell services for the app. Can anyone tell me how this is going to be secure? Since the buyer will acquire the source code, won't that pose a potential vulnerability to the service that's linked to the app? Since they can see what's going on in the background and all that.

3. From the GPL:
Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for them if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs, and that you know you can do these things.
Does the highlighted part above mean that distributing the source code is optional in that, I will give it if the user asks but I am not explicitly required to include it with the package? Provided, I make known to the user that they can request the source code if they want.

4. If I place some form of application security such as registration keys, am I allowed to omit those from the released source code so as to not compromise my own registration system?

5. On the page comparing the difference between Commercial and Community, it states that in the Community edition, "Hide your apps' source code" is not available. My question is; what's to stop somebody from simply just releasing their apps anyway? I mean, if they chose to not include the source code or a copy of the GPL text along with their product, they will get away with it right? I mean, I tried to see if there's any place in my *.exe file that contains the source code (file descriptions, comment, etc) and I can't find it. Does that mean it all boils down to ethics? Or is there a technical implementation going on?

-
I hope somebody finds it in their time to respond to these, as I am quite interested in monetizing my LiveCode projects. While I'd love to get the Commercial license, it's just far too expensive for me. Especially since I have to renew it every year if I want to consistently deliver updates to my apps. :)
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Re: I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

Post by Simon » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:17 am

Good post! I hope someone will answer your questions.
I can help with 1:
Especially since I have to renew it every year if I want to consistently deliver updates to my apps.
That is a little misleading.

PhotoShop is at version 6 I think but I still use version 4. It is not like your LC software evaporates or your licence gets revoked at day 365. You can continue to make software with it all day long for years and years. What does happen at day 365 is you will no longer receive updates to LC.

LC version 3.3 had no mobile support so I did have to purchase a new version so that I could use those features. But only because I wanted those features. Now if I had LC 4.6.4 and during the year they came out with version 5 I would have received all the mobile features for free (that is probably my actual case).

Simon
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CoffeeCone
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Re: I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

Post by CoffeeCone » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:57 am

Simon wrote:Good post! I hope someone will answer your questions.
I can help with 1:
Especially since I have to renew it every year if I want to consistently deliver updates to my apps.
That is a little misleading.

PhotoShop is at version 6 I think but I still use version 4. It is not like your LC software evaporates or your licence gets revoked at day 365. You can continue to make software with it all day long for years and years. What does happen at day 365 is you will no longer receive updates to LC.

LC version 3.3 had no mobile support so I did have to purchase a new version so that I could use those features. But only because I wanted those features. Now if I had LC 4.6.4 and during the year they came out with version 5 I would have received all the mobile features for free (that is probably my actual case).

Simon
This is shown in the FAQs:
If your subscription expires any applications built will continue to run but you will not be able to create new closed source applications or updates to existing applications until you renew your commercial license.
That's what I meant. In order for me to continue to churn out closed-source apps and continue maintenance of my already released apps, I'd have to renew my license every year. Something I cannot afford.
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Re: I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

Post by Dixie » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:34 am

Mmm... that's interesting... this hss not been the case before now.... I suppose that this restriction has arrived for the 'commercial' aspect of liveCode with the advent of them entering the 'brave new world' of open source software...

CoffeeCone
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Re: I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

Post by CoffeeCone » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:30 am

Dixie wrote:Mmm... that's interesting... this hss not been the case before now.... I suppose that this restriction has arrived for the 'commercial' aspect of liveCode with the advent of them entering the 'brave new world' of open source software...
Any thoughts on my other questions above?
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lordmax
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Re: I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

Post by lordmax » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:41 am

Hi

I'm really new to livecode but I can give some answers for GPL
CoffeeCone wrote:Hi, can anyone explain to me a couple of things regarding LiveCode Community and the GPL?

2. I've read on the FAQs page that one of the ways to earn from the Community edition is to sell services for the app. Can anyone tell me how this is going to be secure? Since the buyer will acquire the source code, won't that pose a potential vulnerability to the service that's linked to the app? Since they can see what's going on in the background and all that.
Not if the code is well done.
You give the source code not login/passwords of you're services
CoffeeCone wrote:3. From the GPL:
Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for them if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs, and that you know you can do these things.
Does the highlighted part above mean that distributing the source code is optional in that, I will give it if the user asks but I am not explicitly required to include it with the package? Provided, I make known to the user that they can request the source code if they want.
Yes and no.
It means that you must have a place where the user can download the code and that link must be present in your product.
For example, mycompany had an ftp site for all the source code of ours product. The link to the site is in the "about" page of the product itself.
CoffeeCone wrote:4. If I place some form of application security such as registration keys, am I allowed to omit those from the released source code so as to not compromise my own registration system?
You must put in the surce the source code of the security mechanism.

It means tha you can't give a partial source code, you must provide the completeand correct source code of your app.
CoffeeCone wrote: 5. On the page comparing the difference between Commercial and Community, it states that in the Community edition, "Hide your apps' source code" is not available. My question is; what's to stop somebody from simply just releasing their apps anyway? I mean, if they chose to not include the source code or a copy of the GPL text along with their product, they will get away with it right? I mean, I tried to see if there's any place in my *.exe file that contains the source code (file descriptions, comment, etc) and I can't find it. Does that mean it all boils down to ethics? Or is there a technical implementation going on?
Like before, if the source or a link to the source code isn't provided then the licence is broken.
CoffeeCone wrote: -
I hope somebody finds it in their time to respond to these, as I am quite interested in monetizing my LiveCode projects. While I'd love to get the Commercial license, it's just far too expensive for me. Especially since I have to renew it every year if I want to consistently deliver updates to my apps. :)
Me too, 500$ is really too much

CoffeeCone
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Re: I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

Post by CoffeeCone » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:53 am

Hi lordmax,

Thank you so much for the info. It has made me rethink my approach to client-server logic.
lordmax wrote:
CoffeeCone wrote: 5. On the page comparing the difference between Commercial and Community, it states that in the Community edition, "Hide your apps' source code" is not available. My question is; what's to stop somebody from simply just releasing their apps anyway? I mean, if they chose to not include the source code or a copy of the GPL text along with their product, they will get away with it right? I mean, I tried to see if there's any place in my *.exe file that contains the source code (file descriptions, comment, etc) and I can't find it. Does that mean it all boils down to ethics? Or is there a technical implementation going on?
Like before, if the source or a link to the source code isn't provided then the licence is broken.
Yes, but I am asking more on the technical side of things. I italized the part I'm trying to emphasize in your quote.
lordmax wrote:Me too, 500$ is really too much
It would be nice if there is a "non-well-off programmers" price range that we can choose. :)
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Re: I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

Post by lordmax » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:33 am

CoffeeCone wrote:Hi lordmax,

Thank you so much for the info. It has made me rethink my approach to client-server logic.
lordmax wrote:
CoffeeCone wrote: 5. On the page comparing the difference between Commercial and Community, it states that in the Community edition, "Hide your apps' source code" is not available. My question is; what's to stop somebody from simply just releasing their apps anyway? I mean, if they chose to not include the source code or a copy of the GPL text along with their product, they will get away with it right? I mean, I tried to see if there's any place in my *.exe file that contains the source code (file descriptions, comment, etc) and I can't find it. Does that mean it all boils down to ethics? Or is there a technical implementation going on?
Like before, if the source or a link to the source code isn't provided then the licence is broken.
Yes, but I am asking more on the technical side of things. I italized the part I'm trying to emphasize in your quote.
I think nothing stop you from release your app without source if you want.
Like nothing stop you from stole a car if you want
^__^
CoffeeCone wrote:
lordmax wrote:Me too, 500$ is really too much
It would be nice if there is a "non-well-off programmers" price range that we can choose. :)
Yep, it wouald be really nice

CoffeeCone
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Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:38 am

Re: I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

Post by CoffeeCone » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:55 pm

Hi, I'm bumping this thread to include further questions about GPL.
lordmax wrote:
CoffeeCone wrote:4. If I place some form of application security such as registration keys, am I allowed to omit those from the released source code so as to not compromise my own registration system?
You must put in the surce the source code of the security mechanism.

It means tha you can't give a partial source code, you must provide the completeand correct source code of your app.
What if the security mechanism is provided by a 3rd party? That means I don't have access to its source code, but only of its access points. How is a situation like that?
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Re: I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

Post by mwieder » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:43 pm

@CoffeeCone- then you have left open-source land and you're in the land of commercial applications. IANAL and can only get into surface discussions of this, but basically you can only release/sell an open-source application that is covered under the LGPL if *everything* is open to examination.

The LiveCode source itself contains two third-party libraries which, it was discovered after the fact, are under licenses which are not compatible with the LGPL. So a revised license agreement has been issued as a temporary measure until those two libraries can be replaced with libraries with a more compatible license.

This is the sort of thing that lawyers love to argue about, and my eyes tend to glaze over. But my understanding at a basic level is that either you're compatible with the LGPL and all your code is open-source or you're not, and then if you want to sell your application you're going to need a commercial license. Or a lawyer.

Maybe one of the real lawyers on this forum will be able to chime in and talk some legalese about this.

CoffeeCone
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Re: I want to clear up some things regarding LC and GPL

Post by CoffeeCone » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:52 pm

mwieder wrote:@CoffeeCone- then you have left open-source land and you're in the land of commercial applications. IANAL and can only get into surface discussions of this, but basically you can only release/sell an open-source application that is covered under the LGPL if *everything* is open to examination.

The LiveCode source itself contains two third-party libraries which, it was discovered after the fact, are under licenses which are not compatible with the LGPL. So a revised license agreement has been issued as a temporary measure until those two libraries can be replaced with libraries with a more compatible license.

This is the sort of thing that lawyers love to argue about, and my eyes tend to glaze over. But my understanding at a basic level is that either you're compatible with the LGPL and all your code is open-source or you're not, and then if you want to sell your application you're going to need a commercial license. Or a lawyer.

Maybe one of the real lawyers on this forum will be able to chime in and talk some legalese about this.
Wait, I thought the license was GPL and not LGPL?
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