Livecode Create - thoughts?

[richmond62]

A Python front-end with draggable objects would be super.

[richmond62]

All competition has AI

That does NOT attract me one bit . . .

If I want to use A.I. to do my programming it does not have to be built into an IDE: in fact I would far rather it weren't, so I can choose whether or not to use it rather than have it "shoved up my nose" willy-nilly.

[stam]

Some random thoughts: There was a time when LC *could* have become a Python killer, but that ship has long since sailed sadly.

You have to hand it to the PSF for setting up Python as a charitable project and networking with all the universities, which has been the main driver for its success in getting widely adopted.

But as a language, Python script is tedious and a little bit childish in some ways. LiveCode script is IMO much nicer and more concise (in spite it’s verbosity) - any language that needed to come up with F-strings is just daft.

But python's strength is in all the complex and free libraries created for it, something that LC never really managed to get off the ground in a wider way sadly.

So now we have a closed source, paid-for product in a world of free professional tools that have proven value. LC has not managed to successfully define a good target demographic for either free or paid-for products and as such will struggle to profit.

There are some visual GUIs for Python already, for example PyQt, wxPython) but none are as complete as LC is. Selling LC as a Python GUI doesn’t seem feasible tho… maybe a free version to hook devs into LC, but it’s hard to see how that would be financed.

I’d like to see LiveCode proper and succeed because it’s a uniquely great language and the IDE, while could be modernised, is functional. I hope they can find their way forward with LCC.

[Simon Knight]

So now we have a closed source, paid-for product in a world of free professional tools that have proven value. LC has not managed to successfully define a good target demographic for either free or paid-for products and as such will struggle to profit.

I don't think Livecode Ltd has ever made a profit rather it just about scrapes by. A peak on Companies House reveals large numbers in brackets against net liabilities and if I remember basic accounting large numbers in brackets are generally bad news.

The no code project has been in development for three years and is still only being issued as developer previews.

DP stands for Developer Preview. It’s an early release which is not yet feature complete.

A crude time line:
Year - 2022 - Livecode spends seven times its normal development budget on its no code solution.
April 2023 - Xavvi is nearly ready..........

We’re nearly ready with Xavvi but we need your help to make this project a success.

Crowd funding raised just under £350,000, half to be spent on development the other half on market research.

Aug 2025 RunRev Ltd releases Livecode Create DP 8 and announces the release on its Discourse forum which has 113 members.

The average wage for a software engineer in Edinburgh is £61,000 per year. If all 113 members buy a licence for LCC then the license fees are not enough to pay for a single software engineer for a year. I can't help wondering where all the users are and when the release of version one will occur.

Mind you I have no idea how business accounting works.

S

[stam]

The average wage for a software engineer in Edinburgh is £61,000 per year. If all 113 members buy a licence for LCC then the license fees are not enough to pay for a single software engineer for a year. I can't help wondering where all the users are and when the release of version one will occur.

Mind you I have no idea how business accounting works.

S

You have a point: we don't know what the real picture is but to us mere mortals the monetisation of LC seems strange and haphazard, and difficult to see how that would either bring in new users or extract more cash from existing users.

Granted - the 'internal users' licence could make money if a large number of users of an app also had to pay for a full licence (and would not be visible say in the forums), that seems like a niche market, as any app one would develop would have to be on a subscription basis more expensive than an Adobe subscription(!) if the developer actually wanted this to be profitable. How many LiveCode developers would actually do this? we don't know, but it's hard to believe that's in the the thousands or even hundreds.

The 5% tax on the payments licence seems too meagre to be helpful either. High end of normal for most non-specialised apps is around £50. If I sell my app to 1000 users that means a profit of annual licence (recurring) + £2500 (non-recurring). But how many LiveCode devs actually have an audience of 1000+ users commercially? Again we don't know (and neither do we know how much such apps sell for, possibly half that).

I still fee it would have been more profitable to offer LC at a lower price point and with micropayments (an example I often offer is the pricing structure for the Panorama X database https://www.provue.com/#pricing). The ideal is to lower the barrier for people to test, and offer an incentive to long term purchases. I'm pretty sure many would be enticed by such a payment model, but that's just me... (but do check out the link, it's an enticing pricing structure).

[richmond62]

This is probably one of those discussions that can go round in circles for ever, for, despite of protestations, various bodies have never demonstrated any real evidence of either listening or acting on suggestions.

[Simon Knight]

I still fee it would have been more profitable to offer LC at a lower price point and with micropayments (an example I often offer is the pricing structure for the Panorama X database https://www.provue.com/#pricing).

I agree but then I am biased as I only program these days when the weather is bad, but the Provue option is attractive and obviously works for them.

probably one of those discussions that can go round in circles for ever

Yes you are probably correct but you know we will probably continue to speculate.

I'm not the first to write this but how on earth will the web site offering ever attract new users? Unless I've missed it if I want to try Livecode in any form I have to buy a full license at £422.40 including VAT. There is no "if not satisfied....." refund option, its a case of stump up the cash and lump it. I almost have the impression that Livecode Ltd does not want hobbyists and small app developers to buy because they are to much trouble.

S

[stam]

I almost have the impression that Livecode Ltd does not want hobbyists and small app developers to buy because they are to much trouble.

Yes. And of course the devs they appear to want to target will already be engaged with mainstream free tools instead, so from my uninformed point of view it seems strange they’re going in this direction… but what do I know…

[jacque]

I believe their main focus now is custom application programming for larger corporations and businesses. LC still welcomes small developers like us but we aren't the primary target group now.

[Simon Knight]

I believe their main focus now is custom application programming for larger corporations and businesses. LC still welcomes small developers like us but we aren't the primary target group now.

Makes sense if they are to survive but I don't think its very good for us small developers.

S

[stam]

I believe their main focus now is custom application programming for larger corporations and businesses. LC still welcomes small developers like us but we aren't the primary target group now.

No i get that and that is my point: is this really the best choice?
I obviously can’t know, but my impression rightly or wrongly is that it may have been better to lower the bar for entry to increase the user pool, rather than trying to maximise profits off the existing and sadly ever dwindling user pool. Sure, “free” doesn’t do it but it seems likely to me that a large volume of affordable licences may be at least as profitable as a small number of unaffordable (for most) licences that are also an obstacle to new users…

LC may be the very best productivity tool, but in the “corporate” sphere how many devs will a) not use the established pro tools, where there is massive support from internet and AI, and b) how many devs will be lucky enough to be working with a team that has even heard of LC?
It does not seem like a large pool to me… so the existing paying users would need to be gouged to make ends meet.

As Richmond says this discussion will only go round in circles…

[dunbarx]

This is discouraging. What happened to "Programming for the rest of us?"

I have LC now. I will have it forever. I have not needed nor been grateful for any new feature since the enhancement of the itemDelimiter to support strings of any length. That was a Godsend, the last one I can recall. I do not expect to ever use Create.

But if what Jacque says is true, then why work so hard on Create at all? Is that new gadget so powerful that it supports the custom development work that Scotland is purported to be working on? I see it as a boost to starting a new project, not for developing that project to completion.

Am I wrong about that? Likely, I think, though I do not see, as yet, how.

When HC was discontinued, I had it and continued to use it. Still do, though I do not change the existing code much.

Craig