Livecode Create - thoughts?

[Simon Knight]

I have just watched the videos about the launch of Livecode Create. For those who have not watched the link is https://future.livecode.com/

The short version is that the present versions of Livecode will be supported until 2027 with bug and security fixes:

LiveCode 10 is the last feature release of LiveCode "Classic". We will continue to maintain Classic (with bug fixes and OS compatibility only) until 2027.

Personally as a hobbyist I have to decide the upgrade is worth the additional cost. The licensing options are interesting and look good on paper but I do wonder how they will work in the real world.

Simon

[richmond62]

but I do wonder how they will work in the real world

A lot of us will keep wondering as there seems to be no option to download a trial version.

[matthiasr]

LiveCode 10 is the last feature release of LiveCode "Classic". We will continue to maintain Classic (with bug fixes and OS compatibility only) until 202

The question is, what exactly does that mean? Will subscribers at least be able to continue their subscription even after 2027? Or will the subscription expire and there is no way to renew it?

[richmond62]

Or will the subscription expire and there is no way to renew it?

1. Or will it become a lifetime licence with no further renewal fee?

[matthiasr]

Or will the subscription expire and there is no way to renew it?

1. Or will it become a lifetime licence with no further renewal fee?

That would not be in Livecode Ltd.´s interest. They need to earn money and this of course okay. I am pretty sure the vast majority of subscribers then wouldn't switch to the new product as long as possible.

Btw. I have here a commercial lifetime license (for current and also all future platforms) and I am even not sure that I can use LC after 2027....
Although I really hope that LC Ltd. will either keep their license servers running to unlock it or at least send me a permanent license file, that does not expire.

[richmond62]

Does this mean that LiveCode's projected future is to become increasingly like HyperStudio (although predominantly web-based), which eventually made its coding inaccessible to its users?

While this may, possibly, bring more income to LiveCode (the company), it may also result in driving away its more dedicated cohort of extremely skilled programmers who have dedicated significant chunks of their lives to become extremely proficient in the underlying programming language.

[matthiasr]

Just for those who are interested in....

Livecode classic formerly just called Livecode will not continue to run after 2027.
Even the lifetime license will expire after 2027
So my non-expiring Livecode license will expire

After almost 20 years with Revolution/Livecode and nearly every project funded I have to think about in which direction I should go now.
Should I stay or should I switch to an other development tool which allows me to develop on macOS and deploy to Win/macOS/iOS and Android.

If I stay and subscribe to LC Native (I am not a friend of Cloud based software) and, what I really do not hope, LC Ltd. fails with this LC Create Cloud stuff and struggles than the chances are that also LC Native will be affected.
If I decide not to stay and decide to use LC until 2027, I could use the meantime to dig deeper into an other language (Xojo or whatever) which allows me to deploy to the same platforms as LC does for less money and could try to build some of my inHouse tools with that other language. I only have to spent time and nerves.
The question is, am I too old for all this crap?

Before someone answers "lifetime licenses" don't bring in any money...
Besides my lifetime license I had also a subscription running, although I did not needed it.

[richmond62]

Of course there IS an alternative, but I have been told not to mention its name here . . .

[dunbarx]

Matthias.

Livecode classic formerly just called Livecode will not continue to run after 2027.

I understood it will no longer be supported after 2027, but that hardly means it will not run.

I think.

Some have happily remained with the Commercial version.

I have a subscription (and always have) simply to support LC. I do not use it. I do understand that come 2027, it will be noticed if I do what I mainly do, that is, make a handful of Windows standalones (I develop on Mac) to distribute to the engineers who work for me. If I am right, such standalones will be considered separate "seats", a common paradigm in many other subscription-based software programs.

Developing for desktop wholly for in-house use (and to friends and family) my case is perhaps unusual in that I rarely need to keep pace with the changing rules and pitfalls of the OS, the processor, the App Store, etc. Those who do are in a different class than me, and may have significant concerns.

Craig

[matthiasr]

Craig,

I do not assume this. It was a statement from Kevin in a video especially for the Lifetime License user.
They will not allow Lifetime license holders to use it after 2027.
I also received an email from Heather trying to explain why it is not possible.
I'll assume Heather's consent and post the answer. It's nothing confidential.

Providing a permanent unlock at end of life only requires one license to "escape" onto the internet, and LiveCode is free for everyone forever. Although the damage would be limited I'm sure as unmaintained software won't continue to work on new OS's for very long, its not a risk we'd want to take.

[stam]

I was asked not to disclose or discuss this, but since the cat is out of the bag…

This isn’t all negative. This comes with a new pricing structure that will be much friendlier to non-professional devs and would certainly lower my sub costs by over 60%.

Having a web based IDE means it’s usable on any device (eg Chromebooks).

I’m with you that I prefer a binary to a web app. But I reserve judgment for now. If I can use it like I use my IDE at present more or less then I’m happy. Probably.
It needs to create standalone apps or it’s useless to me.

If the web browser doesn’t do it, there is no app to replicate this and LC10, the final version of the current IDE, expires with no option to continue using it past 2027 then many sadly will be looking elsewhere.

Unless something dramatic happens with OpenXTalk (meaning they get external funding for dedicated development or there is an influx of C-developers to push engine development), that probably isn’t a great long term strategy.

Personally I’ve been brushing up on Python since I heard this news.
It’s really frustrating how much better LC is a language than Python, but Python has greatly overtaken LC because of how it’s positioned and marketed itself. As a result there is a vast array of important libraries available and it’s gained the critical mass needed to stay as popular language, where LC I’m sure could have done better had decisions 10-15 years ago been different. Perhaps.

But that ship has long sailed now.

I suspect most will do what I’m doing: keeping on with LC for now, what and see what emerges in the near future, keeping using LC10 for the next 3 years and then decide on whether to hit the eject button.
Some may jump earlier. Regardless, better to have options…and plan early.

[heatherlaine]

Hello Stam,

Yes the cat is well out of the bag now, we only asked you not to discuss it until we went public

I think you haven't fully understood what we are offering however. LiveCode Create Native is the new desktop IDE. We're certainly not going only to offer web apps. You will be able to run the LiveCode Create IDE on Mac and Windows, as well as on the Web. You will be able to build standalone apps for iOS and Android as well as all the desktop platforms and deploy to Web. There is no cause for alarm here.

Best Regards,

Heather

[kevinmiller]

Hi Matthias,

Lifetime was always for either the product or the customer, whichever came first. Even after this date your apps will continue to run for as long as they remain compatible with whatever OS they are on. 26 years is well above the average lifespan of a tech product. Nonetheless as a longstanding customer who we value very much, I actually called you to ask you about this (and all the other changes) a couple of weeks ago. You didn't express any issue with it. If you're really truly unhappy about this now then drop me a line directly and I'll see what I can do for you.

[robertem]

I am a long standing customer and am very unhappy with it.

[dunbarx]

Cat?

Heather and Kevin called me as well. I believe their overall plan is sound, and the future as well.

I also see that there is some confusion as to details. Perhaps an FAQ should be set up with the most frequently raised concerns?

Craig