LiveCode Forums.

They keep talking about it

Yes, well, other people 'keep talking' and have yet to produce what they are talking about . . .

Who said, "HTML5", oh, it was me, time to smack myself on the hand.

Yes, well, other people 'keep talking' and have yet to produce what they are talking about . . .

HTML5 is a very big project. They're working on it, and we have the FMP initiative to thank for that -- something else you've disparaged. Much of that work gets incorporated into LC so we all benefit.

Ambitious things take time.

Ambitious things take time.

I wouldn't dispute that: my Devawriter Pro has been "on the go" for 12 years and is only about half the way I want it to be.

But, while I have been working on Devawriter Pro I have also not let my EFL school fall by the wayside, nor my R and D
re teaching and so on.

richmond62 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:11 pm Xojo just sent me an e-mail:
...
1. Xojo IDE now native on Apple Silicon Macs.
...

You may want to look closer: https://www.great-white-software.com/bl ... /heads-up/

For what it's worth:
I came from XOJO and had been using it for a number of years. If you think there aren't serious issues on that side of the fence as well, then I'd like to have some of whatever it is you're smoking

I won't mention all the weirdness that comes with participating in the forums, but i think it's safe to say it's a completely different mentality from these forums (check out ifnotnil.com to get an idea...). But for me the biggest issue was constantly having to 'fight' the IDE; i found myself spending inordinate amounts of time trying to code simple controls by using the canvas control to build what i wanted. It would take me forever to get stuff done. On the plus side, the binaries created are definitely faster than LC. I just don't enjoy the process as much.

XOJO is vastly different from LC and there will be a very steep learning curve to get anything approaching a real, serious app done (for which you'll almost certainly need to invest in one or all of the MonkeyBread plugins, good but not cheap), and, to be honest, you may be better served investing your time elsewhere.
There are many free options. Then again, everyone is different and you may fall in love with it... who knows. Check out their free trial version (you can't compile but you can run debug builds from the IDE).

I left XOJO behind and have really got into liveCode because I'm extremely more productive in this. But if LC fails financially (which, as i understand it is a real possibility) I probably wouldn't go back to XOJO.

Instead I'd consider:
- B4X: Visual basic type language, very responsive devs, free for all platforms except iOS. Downside is they don't have a mac client, so you'd need to programme in Windows (virtual or otherwise), but creates binaries for Win/Mac/*nix/mobile
- If mac only (sadly, much as i'd like to use, it's not an option for my projects) i'd consider Swift or SwiftUI
- I'd probably end up going with Flutter/Dart - iOS, Android, Windows, macOS, and Linux; as well as web. With a powerhouse like Google behind it, it's guaranteed to continue strongly.

However based on my language preferences i'd have to say I prefer LC, followed by Swift and then Flutter. I really wouldn't consider re-subscribing to XOJO... but that's just me, ymmv...

*** Edited to correct the INN forum's URL ***

(check out www.ifnotnil.com to get an idea...)

Doesn't seem to go anywhere from here ? heh.

stam wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:57 pm I came from XOJO and had been using it for a number of years.

...and here I thought I was close to the only one I started with RB 5.5 and stopped updating it shortly after RB 2006, because it seemed like every release after that was coming up with a new problem, or a re-write of functions that worked perfectly before it. The real show stopper for me moving up was when the IDE started moving in slow slow speed despite my computer being fairly medium end hardware wise at the time.

Short story, much like with this language, I stayed back in the IDE versions heh. I still use 5.5 frequently, and 2006 when I don't feel like firing up a vm.

I won't say that the move to a completely new way of thinking to use transcript was all roses and honey for me, and I still get hung up when things I *think* should be easy to understand trip me up repeatedly, but at least I can muddle my way through it rapidly. Of course, I am now facing the same issues I had with Xojo, to me (and apparently a LOT of others), the IDE keeps getting worse, not better, slower not faster, etc.

Speaking only for myself, I'm ok with that because really I'm so far back in IDEs now it is a moot point, but I have the feeling I'll probably be switching over (or back heh) to FP + Lazarus, which is a copy of one of my all time fav IDEs, Delphi 7. I may take a dip in the GODOT pool for a while longer as well, while it is a gaming development IDE and not nearly as english like as this language, it does seem to be pretty fast and (relatively) easy to deploy to multiple platforms.

Ok, so my development is retarded as far as IDEs go, so what.

bogs wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:35 pm

(check out www.ifnotnil.com to get an idea...)

Doesn't seem to go anywhere from here ? heh.

sorry... i made a mistake in the URL, there is no 'www.'. The correct URL is https://ifnotnil.com

bogs wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:35 pm The real show stopper for me moving up was when the IDE started moving in slow slow speed despite my computer being fairly medium end hardware wise at the time.

And it's only got slower since... dragging a control around on a busy layout goes at like 2 fps (or at least that was the case by the time i unsubbed)

stam wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:15 am And it's only got slower since... dragging a control around on a busy layout goes at like 2 fps (or at least that was the case by the time i unsubbed)

Yah, I kept thinking it would speed up eventually, but it hadn't up till 2015, sooooo....... heh. If I recall correctly, at the time I had been thinking of cross porting my wife's db program, I had stepped up to RB 2012 to stop having to write my own rig to put pictures into the db. That was a complete disaster, going from 2006 (rock stable) to 2012 (crashed every few lines of code)... ugh.

That was about the time of the IDE redesign, which started the huge slow down in IDE speed. I have never really understood why companies that have a good solid design suddenly decide that changing it to something that will require years (or decades) of re-work think that is a grand idea. Usually (for whatever reason), they undertake this just as they are close to working out the last bugs of the previous design.

The above doesn't just apply to IDEs, btw, I've seen games go that route as well. I've only seen a few circumstances where it actually works out to boot, Blender for instance has generally improved with every redesign (in functionality and use if not looks), but that is the exception to the rule IMHO.

I often wish that the looks would be left till last, and that the functionality and use would be worked on instead (clearing out existing bugs instead of introducing new "features"), but I guess I'm in the minority on that one. Oh well.

bogs wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:59 am I often wish that the looks would be left till last, and that the functionality and use would be worked on instead (clearing out existing bugs instead of introducing new "features"), but I guess I'm in the minority on that one. Oh well.

Gonna guess that rather than a minority, you're in a majority of 90% of users (but probably the minority of companies, especially those where profit margins are very narrow).

Sadly the perception and/or reality that 'new features' these will generate more income than fixing bugs/functionality is what drives market forces.

I guess we all have to vote with our wallets... but where choice is limited that's harder.

Very cool SteveFi programming for the ZX Spectrum! Mikey, it will be interesting to see how Xojo (RealBasic) handles Android. Erel (B4X) has been rather successful using his version of Basic as a wrapper for Java for the Android platform.

gperlman wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:05 am Hi. I’m here just to answer your question and clear up any confusion.

From you description of how LiveCode works, yes, Xojo is different. Xojo compiles your code to machine language for all platforms. The underlying Xojo framework is a combination of different languages depending upon what is needed including a fair amount written in Xojo itself and nearly all compiled to native machine code. The client side of our web framework is JavaScript of course. Xojo has no interpreter nor has it ever had one.

Side note: XojoScript is NOT the code in your app. It is a way to compile Xojo code at runtime. This would allow you as a developer to add a scripting language to YOUR app. Of course the syntax is Xojo. It could also be used if you needed to create math calculations or have your user enter them at runtime. The Xojo code you send to XojoScript is compiled at runtime. This is not the same as the code you wrote as part of your app. That’s compiled by the Xojo compiler when you build.

Side Note 2: Behind the scenes, Xojo uses LLVM, the same optimizing compiler that Apple uses with XCode. We just use it to compile for all platforms rather than just MacOS/iOS.

The one platform we don’t compile all the way down to machine code ourselves is Android. We are writing that framework in Kotlin because that’s the recommended language to use for Android. The code you write in Xojo for Android is also converted to Kotlin (for the same reason) and then compiled into byte code. It is that byte code that is then delivered to the device where Android then compiles it to machine code optimized for the device. That machine code is cached so it doesn’t have to do this every time.

Your Xojo source code is never part of the compiled app you deliver because we compile to machine code or in the case of Android, intermediate byte code.

Our goal with Xojo is for it to be as native as possible on all platforms. That means native machine code, native controls, etc. We do this to provide the best overall user experience possible via the speed of native code and the use of native controls. This is a lot more work of course but we feel it creates the best end result.

I hope this helps. I’m happy to answer any other questions.

It looks like LiveCode now wants the benefits and advantages of something that Xojo has had for many years: a code compiler to generate native, faster and more secure code for each platform. Congratulations to LiveCode for finally recognizing and adopting one of Xojo’s long held strengths.

Congratulations to LiveCode for finally recognizing and adopting one of Xojo’s long held strengths.

Um, well, that can be taken in 2 ways (as the heffalump said to the centaur),and whichever way it is taken it is NOT (as far as I can tell)
going to be rolled into the standard package, but an add-on with a kicker (more money) . . .

with XOJO, as far as I can work out, once one has shelled out for the thing one does not have to shell out more to make
the thing 'sexier' (that may not be the right word).

FRANKLY, a comparison between Xojo and LiveCode, in my original posting was NOT quite this . . .

the benefits and advantages

Are they really?

Or would LC be better to focus on more down-to-earth issues?

And if the answer is the latter my, largely worthless vote, would be to get LiveCode's Linux house in order.

richmond62 wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:31 pm it is NOT (as far as I can tell)
going to be rolled into the standard package, but an add-on with a kicker (more money) . . .

No. It's an engine update and will be a available to everyone as a replacement for the current engine. You will also be able to turn off the final compiling step if you prefer to keep the current behavior.

The advantages are pretty impressive and will bring LC up to the performance of other languages. You'll also see some welcome changes to the script parser. I'm looking forward to the increased speed, faster feature implementation, and the elimination of non-LC syntax.

Questions answered here:
https://livecode.com/script-compiler-project-page/

Thanks for the informative link.

DB4IP wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:03 am It looks like LiveCode now wants the benefits and advantages of something that Xojo has had for many years: a code compiler to generate native, faster and more secure code for each platform.

You chose that as your first post here?
#awesome

If you were led to believe realBASIC/Xojo somehow invented compilation, you might want to get out more.

Congratulations to LiveCode for finally recognizing and adopting one of Xojo’s long held strengths.

While we're raising the cup of disingenuous kudos, congrats to Xojo for finally recognizing more than a decade too late that Android is the most popular OS on the planet.

And as long as we're enjoying this cultural exchange, maybe Xojo could learn from LiveCode how to allow discussion of competing platforms in their forums, rather than censoring and banning so ravenously that refugees need to create their own safe space for open-minded discussion.

We could do this all day, but isn't there anything going on in your world that might hold your attention more productively?