Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

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stam
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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by stam » Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:10 pm

RCozens wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:51 pm
Yesterday I had planned to learn the GM; but after reading the first page of this thread I decided to write a resizeStack handler instead.
I wouldn't shy away from using the GM - it's a great time-saver and i've used it successfully but there are a couple of need-to-know things.
I usually set this as the very last thing i do in my app.
I then run in the messagebox:

Code: Select all

 revCacheGeometry true
I found that it is good to this after any layout change (adding controls and to be on the safe side, repositioning them).

Then i also add

Code: Select all

revUpdateGeometry
to the preOpenCard handler of each card - this updates the GM when you switch cards as this doesn't happen automatically otherwise.

If these 2 things were done automatically i'm fairly sure people would have many fewer issues with the GM, which is otherwise a time saver, and I believe there is an active bug report about this as above.

There are situations where GM alone doesn't work well - for example i have 6 adjacent groups, that all contain controls, and want them all to expand and move as the stack resizes.
I've written on resizeControl handlers for each of the group to move their constituent controls.
I then use the top left group as an anchor, and use the GM on that, so that is resized when the stack size changes.
But then i include code in the on resizeControl of the anchor that moves/resizes all other groups (the alternative would have been group these, which would have worked to reposition the whole group of 6 groups, but not resize them). Now my group of 6 controls expands/moves to fill empty space when users (invariably on Windows) maximise the window. Works fabulously, but did take an afternoon to sort out ;)
RCozens wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:51 pm
Something else I didn't see mentioned in this thread: if your stack includes a dataGrid, the list of controls the GM displays includes large number of objects in the Data Grid Templates stack.
A very valid point, especially as you can't use the GM inside a group - consider submitting an enhancement request to change this behaviour?

Stam

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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by tetsuo29 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:12 pm

OMG. I just ran into this bug again. I can't believe this. It should be shameful and embarrassing to LiveCode at this point.

I was able to close my stack without saving (I lost one new button in the process) and then I opened it back up and ran "revCacheGeometry true" and "revUpdateGeometry" commands in the Message Box as people have suggested and that saved me from having to painstakingly resize my widgets via the Project Browser and the Properties windows but...

No, seriously, I can't. I can't believe that this bug goes unfixed. What has to happen to get this bug fixed?! Arg!

I will never believe that LC takes quality seriously until they fix this damn Geometry Manager bug. Until that day comes, they are full of it when they claim to care about quality.

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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by mwieder » Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:18 pm

Fortunately there's now a replacement for the GM. Currently in the megabundle, and hopefully soon in the full LC10 package.

https://livecode.com/responsive-layout/

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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by FourthWorld » Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:54 pm

mwieder wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:18 pm
Fortunately there's now a replacement for the GM. Currently in the megabundle, and hopefully soon in the full LC10 package.

https://livecode.com/responsive-layout/
Thanks, Mark. The LC site strips identifying info from the dev, citing only "the developer". Do you know who made that? It appears to be some nice work.
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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by matthiasr » Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:10 pm

FourthWorld wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:54 pm

Thanks, Mark. The LC site strips identifying info from the dev, citing only "the developer". Do you know who made that? It appears to be some nice work.
I assume it's Ferruslogic. The Responsive layout and the Polygrid widget are both supported by the Magic Palette plugin. The enhancement pack installer looks similar to the installer Ferruslogic provided last year for a sneak peak of their Polygrid.
But that is only a guess... ;)

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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by mwieder » Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:57 pm

It is indeed nice work, in spite of the silly "Magic Palette" name. I assume that was LC's doing, in keeping with "My LiveCode".

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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:36 am

mwieder wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:57 pm
It is indeed nice work, in spite of the silly "Magic Palette" name. I assume that was LC's doing, in keeping with "My LiveCode".
Curious. I thought I'd seen "acquired" there somewhere, but I could be wrong.

It would make a stronger showing to really play up that these are third-party tools. That would let folks know there's a healthy ecosystem, and avoid perceptions that the company makes these themselves and is now piecemealing IDE palettes at $99 per window.
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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by mwieder » Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:42 am

Sorry... I meant I think the *naming* is LC's doing. The tools themselves are the work of third parties.

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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:23 am

mwieder wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:42 am
Sorry... I meant I think the *naming* is LC's doing. The tools themselves are the work of third parties.
I figured they were. I hope newcomers can figure that out as well. Would be nice to credit the authors.
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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by tetsuo29 » Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:36 pm

mwieder wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:18 pm
Fortunately there's now a replacement for the GM. Currently in the megabundle, and hopefully soon in the full LC10 package.

https://livecode.com/responsive-layout/
Hmm. I dunno. I mean, isn't that just moving the goal posts? I don't wanna buy the megabundle and I don't want some future thing, I want the tool that's supposed to work in the version I have now to work. I want the thing that's been broken the entire time I've been using the product to actually get fixed. It's been like this since like 2004. That's about 18 years of a bug not getting fixed. I said it before and I'll say it again, I think some LC devs have a bit of Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to things like this.

I guess I should just accept it and move on but, I just can't understand why this sort of thing becomes acceptable. I totally believe that this type of bug has to drive devs who are investigating LC away. Imagine what you'd think of it if you weren't already invested in using LC. Your interest is getting piqued; you start experimenting with the product; then you start working through some tutorials and.. bam! you get hit by the GM manager bug making all of your placed elements go wildly out of size; and then, if you haven't run screaming away at that point, you ask a question on the forums and people start telling you things like, 'yeah, it's like that. don't use it. learn to write your own code to resize elements. here's how I do it' -or- 'well, there's this new layout tool that you can spend an additional $500 on or wait for it to get ported into a future release of the product.'

I'm pretty sure at that point, the vast majority of people would just walk away and never look back. <Shrug>. But, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this kind of glaring neglect of a major feature of LC doesn't do what I think it does? Makes me consider jumping ship and learning something new, and I'm already fairly invested in using LC for my projects.

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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by stam » Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:21 pm

I suspect a fix may arrive in the new IDE, whenever that is available.

I can't speak as to the underlying causes but have noticed that both GM and other things can crash silently or generate non-specific errors that provide no clue as to what's gone wrong (certainly the GM issues are largely due a silent crash/incorrect behaviour when incorrect GM rules have been set - eg linking to a control that has been renamed or deleted or some such). With a bit of care and taking precautions however it is possible to use GM quite effectively.
But it does need care and attention... it's a real pain trying to track down which of the hundreds of controls may have an erroneous GM rule...

I wonder also whether the work on modernising the engine to allow for script compilation will allow LC to address these issues directly by providing more accurate feedback to the developer where the problems lie.

I'm not convinced the new responsive layout is a drop-in replacement for what the GM was intended for, but i may be underestimating it as only played around with it once and very quickly ran into what seemed like incorrect behaviour - but that just be my ignorance. But i do think that when the new IDE is finally released it will be a good step forward on this front (and may others).

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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by bwmilby » Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:16 pm

In my cursory look at the new layout module I think it is more in line with how you think about layout on the web. GM suffers from not handling containers well and does not do flow/wrapping of controls.

The glaring GM bug is probably within the community’s ability to suggest a fix. I’ve looked and following the code am not sure why it is happening yet. Everything should be in viewable code for the IDE. There is one bug that I found that I’m not sure is fixed in the release version. I think that I looked and it did not correct the mass reposition issue.
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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by richmond62 » Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:18 am

After the 'death' of the 'community' mentioning that the community might fix something in LiveCode seems a bit infra dig.

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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:06 pm

bwmilby wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:16 pm
The glaring GM bug is probably within the community’s ability to suggest a fix.
With the CLA mechanism no longer in place, the path for community-delivered fixes is unclear to me in light of Mark Waddingham's outline of current operations here:

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-l ... 65592.html
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Re: Why is the geometry manager still borked in 2021?!

Post by bwmilby » Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:46 pm

True enough, but the issue should be in the unencrypted IDE LCS code so if I (or anyone else) finds the bug we can post details here for the benefit of the community. Mark’s comments are pertaining to code coming from the community version, but if code is coming from the commercial version then it should be something they can consider. Anything I submit/suggest would be based on the licensed version so it would not be GPL encumbered.
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