LiveCode Forums.

Hi, erm... I'm confused (a regular occurrence, so no surprise there ! )

How does one / what do you people think is the best way / how have you people managed to ... monetise a LiveCode app ?

I know, I know - a very general / unspecific question... Let me try and be more specific :

I have created a couple of LC apps.
In the past (with non-LC apps) I have created bespoke / specific apps for bespoke / specific clients. The monetisation here came from my ability to write an app to link to / talk with, manipulate and display data from an external source (UAVs, mobile GPS trackers, POS machines, Heart Rate monitors etc).
BUT, now I find I have written a couple of apps (initially because I needed them - and, more recently, advanced them because I believe they may be useful to 'others')... and the question is how to pinpoint / target the 'others' and, therefore, monetise my hard work...

In my complete naivety I thought I would write an app and publish it via the app stores (Mac, Windows and iOS, Android) leaving them to gain their percentage for promulgating (marketing?), enabling download and taking the dosh for it...
But... it seems , perhaps it's not that simple...

So, my question stands; how to you guys make your monthly pay check (just generally, no specifics are request here !! ? Is it simply by taking commissions for a specific app, generating it and handing it over to your specific /bespoke client(s) (and thereby get paid) or do you rely on 'my'... 'model' ?

I'm simply confused. It seems that deploying your app to the iOS/Android market places is far from straight forward and I read a fair bit of confusion as to whether LC is able to 'deploy' to the Mac Store (my primary port of call - or so I thought when I started...) for existence although, I believe it should be / is with some sandbox jiggery poker and the like.

I thought the hard work would be in creating the app... but to be fair, it seems there is just as much, if not more, is 'deploying' it to each of the 4 types of store : Max, Windows, iOS and Android.

Is there a 'tutorial' for this part of the course or, in reality / all truthfulness, is LC really aimed at people creating (non-mobile at least) apps for themselves / specific clients ?

Any and all thoughts most welcome. Thanks a million.

Regards.

Traxgeek wrote:How does one / what do you people think is the best way / how have you people managed to ... monetise a LiveCode app ?

Good question. One in which I am also exploring. I guess the question back is why do you think monetizing an application developed with Livecode is any different than, say, developing it in C or Java? Livecode provides a facility to hide your code (password protection), so you can basically protect your IP. It can build standalone applications, so having the user download another piece of software first is not a problem. (Java cannot claim that, although to be fair, Java is pretty much installed everywhere.) It provides a relatively fast RAD environment, definitely not something you can say with so many other languages. So what is it, in your mind, that makes this a "Livecode" problem and not a "I can't think of a killer app" problem?

In the past (with non-LC apps) I have created bespoke / specific apps for bespoke / specific clients. The monetisation here came from my ability to write an app to link to / talk with, manipulate and display data from an external source (UAVs, mobile GPS trackers, POS machines, Heart Rate monitors etc).

So, looking back on these projects, were any flexible enough to allow you to choose your own language? If so, how would using Livecode be different? Put another way, HOW you monetized that software seems like a process, not a software issue. So I guess I don't understand the problem.

In my complete naivety I thought I would write an app and publish it via the app stores (Mac, Windows and iOS, Android) leaving them to gain their percentage for promulgating (marketing?), enabling download and taking the dosh for it...
But... it seems , perhaps it's not that simple...

Why? What happened? I was able to get an Apple Developer "license" by having a real one-man company, registering for software development with Dun & Bradstreet (a great resource for showing people you are serious about business, even if you do end up getting a lot of junk mail), which is free, and paying my $99 to Apple to show that I am serious (or at least $99 worth of serious...). I think it would be $198 if I signed up for both iOS and Mac OS.

So, my question stands; how to you guys make your monthly pay check ...

Well now there is the rub. It sounds like you want to jump straight into Livecode programming providing you a living wage right off the bat. The people that happens to, in any language, are the exceptions rather than the rule. Many of us program at night and on weekends while working another job in hopes that someday sales will be enough to justify what we did, and someday after that allow us to make it our job. (Me, I am nowhere close to that stage.) Want some inspiration? Take a look at Canela Software's numbers – http://canelasoftware.com/pub/sales.xls – which they presented at a Livecode conference (I cannot remember if it was 2012 or 2013). I read on another forum that they do all their code in Livecode, but I am sure that they probably have a few externals sprinkled in there somewhere. But I could be wrong.

I'm simply confused. It seems that deploying your app to the iOS/Android market places is far from straight forward and I read a fair bit of confusion as to whether LC is able to 'deploy' to the Mac Store (my primary port of call - or so I thought when I started...) for existence although, I believe it should be / is with some sandbox jiggery poker and the like.

You lost me here. Yes, deploying to the App store for iOS is a pain – every iOS developer says that – but as an iOS user I am glad of the process; I am glad that Apple tests it and gives its good seal. Despite the pain, however Apple claims 275,000 registered iOS developers and over 290,000 "apps economy jobs" created (http://www.apple.com/about/job-creation/). Over $9 billion paid out to app developers? That's why people put up with it. Android Market now second biggest app market after iTunes (http://www.statista.com/topics/876/android/)? I'll put up with trying to figure out how to use one code base for two platforms. (More like 1 1/2 for me).

I thought the hard work would be in creating the app... but to be fair, it seems there is just as much, if not more, is 'deploying' it to each of the 4 types of store : Max, Windows, iOS and Android. Is there a 'tutorial' for this part of the course or, in reality / all truthfulness, is LC really aimed at people creating (non-mobile at least) apps for themselves / specific clients ?

As you allude to, there are tutorials for mobile apps. I am not doing non-mobile apps (yet), so I don't really know what the issues are. Can you elaborate? I have pretty much found the answer to every issue I have had using Google with the phrase "livecode [whatever my problem is]". Most of it points to RunRev's tutorials, Stack Overflow, or Q&A on this forum, but there are a few times I found stuff elsewhere. And when I haven't, I simply asked a question on this forum. I have learned a lot the last month. In fact, it was the fact that some functions I needed were built into Livecode that convinced me to move from simply using Livecode as a RAD GUI prototyper to what I will distribute. (When I finish my app, we will see if I made the right choice or had to rely on something else.)

I look forward to your responses. This is a subject I am also interested in.

Regards,

Dale

Hi Dale,

Thanks for your time and response to my 'musings' - much appreciated...
Taking the points in order :
[1] LiveCode a problem / lack of killer app ?
Neither really, Like I say, I've never developed an app without a specific client / contract, so I never had to think of how / where to market it or how to package it to suit whatever remote deployment method I (eventually) hope to come up with. In the past I've always created apps (generally for the military but not always) using a range of languages and deployed directly with AI (Artificial Installer) or similar. The point being I had the client, the Specification of Requirement, the monetisation path and one or more deployment scenario(s) right from day one. With my latest two projects I don't have that comfort / experience to fall back on.

[2] Choice of language / understand the problem
Understood - really, this falls back to [1] above. Yep, the languages chosen depended upon the app - C, VB, .NET, PCSoft and Corona(Lua) - I even played a bit with Rhodes and Ruby. The idea (for me) behind LC was that, more recently, I was, either from the outset or (in one case) subsequently, asked to 'cross-platform/port' the app. I am hoping that LC will make that cross-platform-ing a lot simpler - the idea (naturally) being to write once and deploy to Windows, Mac, iOS and Android with no troubles or minimal porting troubles anyway !

[3] Why? What happened ?
Nothing really - but that's just it I guess... I'll try to elaborate. When I had a single client (MoD or otherwise) I gained acceptance / trust during the project cycle and I was developing (usually) for a specific system. The challenge was understanding my clients' needs and their timescales, writing and having the SoR accepted and then creating the app (on time). I never really had any issues with deployment (taking cognisance of the aforementioned benefits of working for a specific client). Naturally, this has changed in that I now want to OFFER my apps cross-platform and there SEEMS to me (a newbie when it comes to offering an app for general sale - not creating it from the outset for a specific client) that this is a much greater hurdle than I had anticipated...
I already have a company and iOS Dev. account and those kind of necessities... they're not really my problem... well, no more than they are for anyone else running their own business...

[4] To the 'rub'...
Not at all - I'm not (well, not really - though I wouldn't be offended it it happened) expecting to make a working salary from my LC apps in the near future. Typically, over the past 15 years I have programmed for a living, like I say typically for MoD and other defence companies (QinetiQ etc) but... I don't mean to harp on about this... they were a client from the outset, from project conception, SoR, coding, deployment, delivery and Acceptance... Easy - even if it was/is pretty much a 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week !

I can see that I've explained myself / posed my question poorly ; I'm not asking someone to wave a magic wand and make everyone buy a copy of my app on all platforms. I simply thought (though I don't know why) that delivering my app (once created and tested etc) to the market place was going to be (dare I say it) a cynch - the easier part of the process - and yet it seems there is a large amount of work involved with this final(?) process... certainly a lot more than I had anticipated (in my naivety !). Like I say, the daunting part for me (historically) was the completion of a finished app for my client, NOT seemingly having to battle with wrapping it up and any submission process.
I'm still not sure I'm making much sense !
I guess I'm a little 'jaded' that, having (pretty much) finished my app and gotten it past 'in-house' testing (well, Windows and Mac platforms - struggling with Android, haven't even tried iOS yet), I then find it (at least seems to be) far more involved than I had ever anticipated to deploy it / get it in front of potential customers' eyes and, as such, am trying to get a handle on what's required, best practices, what to do / not to do, where to target, where to start kind of info...

In reality, I think I'm being a little churlish and simply need to nuckle down with one specific platform type, crack it, then move on to another one. Like I say, I kinda thought it was simply going to be a 'package it and upload it' process - I see it is nowhere near that simple / straight forward.
Maybe I simply wanted a wee bit of 'hand-holding' and general encouragement along with a 'good place to start' for each of the four platforms. So, I guess a more accurate question would be along the lines of :

'Now that I think my (Mac / Windows) app is ready for the world to see, how should I proceed from here ?' For example :
[1] How do LiveCoders (the ones that ARE selling apps - no matter one sale a year to a million sales a month !) market your apps ? Is it through an app store (be it Windows or Mac, or iTunes or Play, or Amazon etc.) OR is it via your own personal web space/site or some other way ?
[2] Is the process for upload/deployment to one easier than another ? Is one simply downright nigh on impossible ?
[3] If there were a hierarchy and you could deploy to wherever you liked (given your app's suitability) is there one 'store' or method that seems to be (is proven to be) a better monetiser (for the deployment effort) than another (eg. is it better to deploy an app to Windows or to Mac or would that depend to a greater extent on the app itself...) ? Or is it simply far better to make your app available via a sales site and spend time pushing it via Facebook, twitter, forums and the like... ?

It seems a little pointless (given we all have a finite amount of time) to push an app through to (say) the Windows store (???) when someone has proven that, like-for-like, the Mac Store is far better at monetising(assuming that the app in question is for both platforms)... Or is it simply better (if your app suits) to forget Windows and/or Mac (at least initially) and focus on (say) Android ? Then move attention to ...a.n.other when time allows.

I'm not 'expecting' all these questions answered, I'm simply musing and putting my thoughts down for others to consider and maybe chip in a few penneth worth...

So, I AM just about to put my efforts into deployment to a store (Windows, Mac, iOS-iTunes, Play, Amazon etc.) I'm more than happy to create detailed notes on what I find, any obstacles I come across (and how I overcome them) etc but I am completely unsure as to [1] where to start, [2] and if anyone's even vaguely interested...
There doesn't SEEM to be a coherent approach for monetisation on the LC (excepting the recent offer to deploy for you) or StackOverflow forums and I find that... strange... surely that's one of the reasons we code... knot necessarily to make enough for the new mega yacht / Bently, but just to see that we can and what interest we can muster... And, surely this has got to be of interest to all of us (assuming we don't already know ! ) - Someone once said to me, 'You can have the best app / product in the world but if you want it to be seen (in the past I haven't) then don't lock it up in your garage so no one can find it !' (be that good or bad and with whatever consequences... )

Like I say, I'm simply interested in learning how to proceed...

Regards

Not sure I should reply to this as I am not one of the Livecoders that is actually making money by selling my software ...

That caveat aside, I still don't understand what Livecode has to do with this (or how you perceive it does). How do you market your app? It really depends on the market segment for the app. Is it a kids game? That will be marketed different than an adult game. Which will be marketed differently than a utility to help developers.

Is the process for marketing and package an "app" different, if you have it available on different platforms? Absolutely. Like it or not, Apple has its own process if you want to sell through their stores, and if it is iOS, you have to use them (unless your market is jailbroken iOS device – a truly niche market!). My understanding is that Android is much more lax ... oops, spoke to soon because if it is through Amazon then they have yet another process. Windows Marketplace, yet another process. Linux? Their most successful monetization method is "give the software away for free and sell the support, training, books, and conventions". (Sounds like RunRev.)

The approach I am taking on my app is to create one stack with the "model" and no GUI elements. This will essentially be the platform-agnostic code. Then I will have stack for each platform containing the GUI and platform-specific elements (typically dealing with the filesystem). A good example is that the app installed on iOS is loaded into a space that cannot be written to, so any changes you make to the stack will not be saved when the stack exits. That requires you to have code that saves and loads as needed. That is not necessarily needed on a Windows platform, however. Also, if you want to use native iOS or Android GUI elements you need additional code to handle their creation while the code is running (you cannot do it in the IDE), so why should that code be present in your Linux version?

So, in my estimation, not only does each platform require its own deployment process, it really requires platform-specific pieces. Does that mean LC is not cross-platform? I guess that depends upon your definition. In my book that means that I can leverage much of the code without change on multiple platforms, but I don't see it as a requirement that ALL of the code be that way. The fact is, I want my iOS app to look iOS-like and my Android app to look Android-like, etc. That is going to require parts to be platform-specific and I accept that. I just hope my plan works! :^)

Would I skip any of the platforms? Possibly Linux at this point, but only because I am unsure how to approach its "market". So much FOSS over there. My plan is to provide for iOS first (it is what I use everyday), Android second (because it is what my game designer uses everyday), Mac (it is what I develop on) and Windows at that point should be easy additions, from an app viewpoint. After that I would like to get a web version out, but that requires a lot more work, in terms of infrastructure (whether I provide it, or I purchase hosting).

I guess it is all about what kind of app you are writing, rather than what you are writing it in. I think most developers in Livecode probably don't look at selling their work, however. Lot of educators using it, it seems.

The question is broader than anything to do with the development tool used, and arguably even broader than software publishing specifically. In essence, the question is: "How can I create a profitable business?"

That's a deep question, and with some 60% of new businesses failing in their first year, it's a critically relevant one for all of us who publish products.

With that perspective, we could turn the question around to ask: "How do 40% of businesses survive their first year?"

I'm a big fan of learning from what others have already done. Given the large-and-ever-growing number of successful businesses, we may be able to simplify the question further to ask, "What do successful businesses have in common?"

There's no shortage of opinions on that: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22What ... mmon%3F%22

I started to write some tips I've picked up from running my company and talking with other entrepreneurs over the years, but it got really far too long to read, so it'll probably wind up as an article on my site.

In the meantime, perhaps even just thinking about your question with this broader perspective may be helpful. If there's anything specific I'd feel especially useful to add here now, it would be these two tips:

- Take the time to plan well
Consider using a business plan template if it helps, but take the time to identify the product opportunity carefully, noting the full scope of competition, being conservative with market share and revenue projections, and being honest with yourself about assessing resources needed to pull it off (skills, time, etc.). The process of writing even a slender business plan read only by yourself will help you identify which product opportunities may represent the highest return on your investment. SWOT analysis helps a lot.

- Budget for marketing
Too many devs get enamored with R&D while completely overlooking that healthy companies spend at least as much, often twice as much, on marketing. It's not just throwing money at advertising (though that's sometimes useful). Jay Conrad Levinson's books have been enormously valuable to me and many I've worked with in getting a good understanding of ways to market products that cost only time. But it will cost time, and lots of it, to get the word out, so plan for that.

Thanks Richard - helpful as ever. Appreciated.

Thanks too dhurtt. Errrm, I can see now I shouldn't have included the letters 'LC' in my title and thereafter. I meant no inference as to LC being any different at all to any other app dev. platform (except for its relative ease of development - well done RR !!). I guess, the question / title should have been phrased "How does one monetise apps ?" - I put the LC in just because my most recent projects are being developed with LC AND historically, I've developed directly for a specific company/client from the outset - I guess they've all been 'commissioned apps'; my two new apps are un-commissioned - hence my question as to how you gurus have achieved monetisation... AND because, without the 'LC', the question just seems toooooo generic ! -

Having said all that, I am beginning to see it's a lot more complicated than I had 'never bothered/needed' to think about !!! Still, I'm not trying to become an LC millionaire coder in the foreseeable future, it was simply a general thought provoking question as to the best way to proceed with a nearly finished app or two...

Regards both.