The day after (Help LiveCode to go back to school!)

[FourthWorld]

"Fourth World": Malawi, Haiti, Burundi, the list goes on...

These days that last category has been deleted entirely...

Almost.

Indigenousness is why I chose the name. And fun is why I chose a palette of primary colors.

In the 21st century we have a generation indigenous to the infosphere, the sphere of influence that transcends, permeates, and affects the First, Second, and Third Worlds.

[richmond62]

Frankly, a few second-hand computers running Linux and LiveCode to allow some Malawians to "get ahead"
is probably, in the great scheme of things, better than where they have a poo.

My son said that Lilongwe (the capital of Malawi) seemed to have electricity about 50% of the time, and,
what is more important, the power outages were scheduled so one could plan things!

A Malawian who turns up in Jo'burg, Nairobi, Chicago, or Edinburgh and can demonstrate some
know-how re computer programming is going to have a much better chance than a Malawian
who turns up and says, "We have a flush toilet."

https://www.usaid.gov/malawi/education
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All very "ethnic" and so on: but when I see that all I want to do is cry.

[FourthWorld]

So we should have our free version for teaching (and preventing alzheimer's in the elderly!).

Thank you for following through on that, Mariasole. So many people try to reach the company only through these user-to-user forums, with predictable non-results. But you wrote directly to them, were patient, and followed up. Well done.

Kevin gets busy. I often go months at a time waiting for a follow up. He does eventually follow up.

An LC version that doesn't produce standalones is a useful option for a platform. Your persistence is not only a good thing for your students, but also for the company. Products and platforms are very different creatures, with different requirements for care and feeding. Your request has helped nudge them a bit toward fulfilling the potential of evangelizing their platform. Grazie.

[FourthWorld]

To a large extent this whole discussion seems a bit academic because:

1. The last Open Source version of Livecode is freely available and can be used for teaching (as I am doing right now), and standalones can be made from it.

2. A non-LC branded Open Source version of 9.6.3 with
additions is in the pipeline (I have tested an early version on Linux).

I have deep admiration and respect for Paul McClernan, but Apple won't be supporting legacy CPU instruction sets forever. Given their history of using architectural shifts to weed out devs to protect only the most loyal willing to keep investing $$$$$ to stay current with the moving target that is an Apple platform, I'd wager they nix legacy instruction sets within 24 months. That may be plenty of time, or not, I don't know because I've never made a CPU update recompile of the LC code base and related externals.

Moreover, GPL is a very specific license, in which "free" isn't about "gratis" but "libre". GPL is a great license when proliferation of code is the goal, but not every project has that goal. I've known educators who prefer MIT not because they need proprietary commercial works but just to simplify licensing requirements for any additional components they may use, distribution channel needs, and others.

In short, the forked FOSS is a useful short-term solution, and the work is much appreciated. But its viability beyond a few semesters cannot be known at this time. And even where it may be technically viable, a non-GPL license will be needed by some individuals and organizations, even non-for-profit ones, depending on their larger goals.

[FourthWorld]

It is to be hoped that any web-based version can be downloaded for off-line use, albeit inwith a browser.

The answer there is a solid "maybe".

Some browsers don't support running JavaScript from local files, This can be worked around using pjson instead of json, but I haven't seen LC do that yet, and given the complication I don't blame them (the only place I've seen it in the wild yet is Keynotes' HTML export).

And as bad guys get ever craftier, it may be that over time all browsers eventually prohibit running local JS.

But this isn't bad, provided there's tooling available to support educator needs. LocalHost is an acceptable domain to to allow scripts to be downloaded and run (yes, I know, which rather raises the question of why the prohibition is there in the first place). And a lightweight GUI server not only lets you run any web app, but also opens the door to MANY learning opportunities for networking. Oh so many, scalable and tailorable for all age groups from middle school up.

We live in a connected world. The number of isolated one-machine, one-user apps is getting smaller every year. Teaching computing in the 21st century is eventually teaching networking. And that knowledge not only augments the adoption of algorithmic rigor, but helps make the learner, their families, and the world safer by giving them the same mastery over networking concepts being used against them every day by the bad guys.

[stam]

To turn things away from scatology in a far away land:

I would have thought the bigger challenge is how to provide offline educational material on LiveCode to a 4th world country with no internet access when the best learning resources are online.

In contrast to the fantastic manual/user guide HyperCard came with in that era (not to mention a number of well written books from 3rd parties), the (very) few available printed books on LC are outdated, expensive and generally not recommended (judging by online feedback) even if still in print.

Surely that's a bigger obstacle that providing an 'offline' version of a free product won't solve...

[richmond62]

I find that about 50% of the children I teach, whether EFL or programming, while having a desktop
or laptop computer, have the internet completely disabled by Mum and Dad because they don't want
"little twonkums" watching 'wobbly bits' or what-have-you when they are at work and Granny is asleep on the sofa.

Obviously it is not my place to tell parents that it might be better to let their children have internet connexion and they, the parents,
take the time and trouble to sit down and explain a few things to their children.
As a large number of those parents are working 10-12 hours a day just to keep their heads above water, it is hard not to sympathise with them.

I could, obviously, convert ALL my EFL delivery standalones I have on my machines at school so they could be accessed inwith a browser
by children for homework and so on: but that presupposes those children have internet access.

As the children who attend my summer intensive classes in LiveCode programming are expected to put in 3-4 hours homework a day,
and some of them do not have internet access, it is important that they can have something usable offline.

Now: in the great scheme of things, my little operation here in Bulgaria is not really very significant. BUT the point about
internet access being unavailable for whatever reason (several) does have to be made.

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The other question that has to be asked relates to this:

I have spent some time considering this request and talking to other educators too.

Because what is not clear is where those other educators work: because if they only work inwith the USA and the UK
they will give a very one-sided view of things.

[richmond62]

a non-GPL license will be needed by some individuals and organizations, even non-for-profit ones, depending on their larger goals.

I would be grateful if you could unpack that statement as I find it a bit difficult to understand.

[Newbie4]

LiveCode can not exist forever by constantly going back to its base of loyal users with special promotions and asking for more money. They need to expand their base of paying users. Their open source versions did not lead to enough paying customers to justify it. They are a business and need sales to grow and support the product. Sadly that line of thinking does not include third world countries, people who do not have Internet access or have old equipment - all of who are not likely to be paying customers.

It is up to us as educators and supporters to find a way to bring it to the classroom and other people. We can provide the learning materials and coursework but we need our own version, maybe crippled but one that is useable and supported.

We need to convince LiveCode to give us some form of the product that will not divert paying customers from purchasing licenses. A form that will allow us to teach CS and programming and allow hobbyists to learn the craft and make useful programs that only they will use.

We need to open a dialog with LiveCode and discuss our needs as teachers and hobbyists. It would help if we have specific suggestions and are unified as a group.

To be discussed:

[indent] 1. Do we need 2 versions? One for standalone computers with no Internet access (for teaching) and a version of the new platform that works in a browser? (that we can use with iPads, iPhones, vintage computers, odd operating systems, etc) also to teach with Or do we just ask for one of those - which one? Which is better for us or less work for them? [/indent]

[indent] 2. What we are willing to do without (no standalones?, less commands/smaller dictionary?, simplified interface?, fewer capabilities e.g. no SQL?) so we do not take away customers[/indent]

[indent] 3. A transition path to paying customers for students or hobbyists that allows only personal use? (limit the number of platforms/standalones/time active/etc). [/indent]

We need to find out what is easiest for them to remove without causing a lot of extra work for their staff.
We need to work out a transition to paying customers and maybe a one-time plan for hobbyists

Can we come up with a consensus of what we want and need? LiveCode is in the process of developing the new version and we have a chance to speak up. We can maybe help them find a way that will not take away sales from them. It is on us to specify what we need and get them to agree.

Suggestions? Opinions?

[FourthWorld]

a non-GPL license will be needed by some individuals and organizations, even non-for-profit ones, depending on their larger goals.

I would be grateful if you could unpack that statement as I find it a bit difficult to understand.

I'm not sure where I would begin. Could you tell me which part is unclear? For example, it is the GPL rights and responsibilities, EDU business cases, or something else?

[richmond62]

Why non-profit orgs would feel they needed closed-source software.

[richmond62]

We need to open a dialog with LiveCode and discuss our needs as teachers and hobbyists. It would help if we have specific suggestions and are unified as a group.

Indeed we do, but LiveCode have demonstrated in the past a reluctance to engage in that sort of dialogue.

My response is what it has been for some time, and old timers and the folk at LiveCode centre should understand it completely:

RevMedia was so, so right.

[sannikrde]

I like your proposal, and if you haven't submitted it in email to the company directly I would encourage you to do so. I still believe there's much that can be done to expand LC's reach in the world.

[stam]

Just for clarity and balance i'd also point out that LC do provide a low-cost solution with the only real limitation that standalone will stop working when you stop paying your monthly subscription.

Per platform, this is about the cost of 2 cappuccinos or a going to the movies once a month in most 'first world' counties.
My point being: while not free, there is no huge paywall to getting into LC.

The company then said they'd offer a free web-based version, and the response here is 'what about those who don't have internet"
I'm afraid a lot of this smacks of wanting the cake whole and to eat it as well.

Education is a fine ideal that may help extend the user base in 5-10 years time - or may not.
LC was FOSS for several years and has been used in education - is there any evidence to show to LC that this led to increased company? if you had this data that would strengthen the argument. I suspect LC have looked into this and not found what they needed.

But in the mean time i imagine LC needs to expand it's user base now, not invest in something that may or may not yield benefit in 10 years time.
That means converting developers from other IDEs and the current pricing structure for the full product reflects this.
For amateurs and those wanting to learn, there is a low cost subscription and the upcoming web version. Not sure what more one can expect from a company that isn't a multi-national billion-dollar-turnover company...

[richmond62]

LC do provide a low-cost solution with the only real limitation that standalone will stop working when you stop paying your monthly subscription.

Does that also mean the IDE locks up when one stops paying one's monthly subscription?