Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

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Bernard
Posts: 351
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Location: London, England

Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by Bernard » Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:04 am

stam wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:21 pm
@Bernard:
Clearly you have your views you will not engage in any discussion. I congratulate you on purchasing a mac in 1997; i got my first mac in 1985.
But as i am not posting here to argue with you or to win some kind of contest, i'll stop responding to this type of post now.

I will make these parting points/questions for contemplation:
  • A marketing manager who does marketing that no one can see is not doing a great job
  • Do you really think that a high enough proportion of potential new customers are even aware of the existence of LiveCode?
  • Stereotypes are stereotypes for as reason; Advertising your product is a basic marketing stereotype. In the current era this involves social media.
  • Do you anticipate that any advertising effort is pointless and that increasing the user base purely a function of addressing missing features and bugs?
  • Or perhaps you don't think increasing the user base is required?
  • Once a user has been converted to LC, you are suggesting it's only the amateurs dabbling in LC that will pay for licences of indy/pro, and that people consider themselves coders and get into LiveCode will just stick to the community/free offering? Really?
  • In case i wasn't clear - when i say 'social media marketing' I mean two things, neither of which is limited to social media:
    - increasing awareness that the product exists
    - Make periodic offers to draw people in
    I take it you think both of the above are done to a satisfactory level?
I'll remind you the OP title is Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?
This is a direct function of the size of the user base
The size of the user base is directly linked to the success/longevity of the company.
Or to reverse your argument on B4X - if there is only 1 user and they die, then you have no users.


Thanks for the discourse, but i'll leave this here now.
I wrote a long and detailed reply to this. But after submitting it, the reply has gone. No prompt to login. Just gone.

My replies to Richard came after that post, and they did not disappear.

How on earth can a commercial product like phpBB with 1000s of installations be so crap?

richmond62
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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by richmond62 » Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:20 pm

I know why hospitals do NOT appoint doctors as their financial managers,
and for the same reasons why they don't give scalpels to financial managers.

Kevin Miller and Mark Waddingham are, as far as I can tell, brilliant
programmers, as are the members of their support team. They have
been producing a product that has been consistently 95% fantastic
for at least 20 years!

But someone is a bloody bad website designer. Some (else?) is a
bloody bad marketing person. Because such a fantastic product
should have a lot greater traction than it does.

When I mention LiveCode to Bulgarian educational institutions
the result is a damp fart because there is nothing to back up
"that daft Scotsman" as far as any of them are concerned.

Why do High school children have to get turned off by PASCAL,
C++, C# and VISUAL BASIC when LiveCode beats them all hollow
as a teaching language? I have just had a class of girls aged
between 9 and 16 who are raving about LiveCode, but no-one
is going to listen to them!!!

danieg
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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by danieg » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:09 am

Hi everyone. First of all, I want to apologize for my writing. English isn't my first language.

This forum is really great, and help is always only a key press away. Many thanks to everyone who
gave up their free time to make this forum possible.

It is mostly painful to have an idea or a broad outline of what you want to achieve with your app,
only to spend a lot of time finding the right solution.

My take is that this forum holds the key to discoverability on Google. Many longtail keywords to enable
broader search results. The posts need to be reworked/written with the first 10 results in Google as the target.
It is doable.

Every app contains functionality that can be classified as universal. I think a way forward would be to
add a permanent link to this forum where the visitor can download a cut-down version of the Livecode IDE
with snippets of code categorized and searchable. One side shows the selected snippet, while the other side dynamically
executes the snippets. This interface enables the user to quickly isolate related snippets and scroll down the list, visually
searching for the best possible solution. As well as a link to the relevant forum post(s).

Well, someone is going to ask "Who will do this?". My answer to this is, "Why isn't there an affiliate program for Livecode?"
Any product owner will tell you that the majority of sales are coming from the affiliates.

If Livecode had an affiliate program (generous), and I was given access to these posts to repurpose them for better Google results,
then it will big enough of an incentive to see where this effort will lead to.

Seeing that I also have a day job and limited time, this will be a long-term project. My project idea is in the lines of
getting better Google search results. I paid a lot of money (yearly license) for a software product that will make
the SEO doable. Support of this product is lacking. I think that building the tool in Livecode will result in a more flexible
solution.

I believe there are enough knowledge and ability on this forum to build a suitable search interface to link to.

It is nice to be among like-minded friends.

Bernard
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Location: London, England

Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by Bernard » Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:29 pm

Hi
This forum is really great, and help is always only a key press away. Many thanks to everyone who
gave up their free time to make this forum possible.
I see many people extolling the forum (Klaus etc are stars). I'll come back to that below.
It is mostly painful to have an idea or a broad outline of what you want to achieve with your app,
only to spend a lot of time finding the right solution.
But that is what application development is. Especially with a tool like Livecode. LC's Dictionary, in printed form, is over 1000 pages. It's one of the thickest books on my shelves. Just to compare: I pulled down one of the most comprehensive books on system administration and application development for one of IBM's database technologies. It's also just over 1000 pages long. So in terms of breadth of information on using LC the information available is as large as that for a complex multi-server, multi-user, multi-language database technology with millions of users and which cost $billions.

Some people here use LC with Sqlite; others with PostgreSQL; others with CouchDB. They may never do graphics manipulation. Others do graphics manipulation and never use databases or datagrids. Some are targeting iPhone and never build for Linux; some are using LC as a server-side html processor.

What is important to one app developer is not of interest to many others.
My take is that this forum holds the key to discoverability on Google. Many longtail keywords to enable
broader search results. The posts need to be reworked/written with the first 10 results in Google as the target.
It is doable.
What's the search query for which LC should be in the first 10 results? People who are looking for information regarding C# don't want information about Livecode. Any search engine that returns apparently useless information to the bulk of its users is a search engine that will fall into disuse. Even if Livecode was in the first 10 results for a whole bunch of searches, don't you think that the people advocating for the 100s of other programming languages wouldn't be looking to get their results ahead of Livecode?

If I search for "Livecode samples" then the first 10 results from Google are useful and relevant. Including a link to a Udemy course that I had no idea existed, taken by 643 students and rated 4.2 out of 5 by them. https://www.udemy.com/course/livecodemobile/
Every app contains functionality that can be classified as universal. I think a way forward would be to
add a permanent link to this forum where the visitor can download a cut-down version of the Livecode IDE
with snippets of code categorized and searchable. One side shows the selected snippet, while the other side dynamically
executes the snippets. This interface enables the user to quickly isolate related snippets and scroll down the list, visually
searching for the best possible solution. As well as a link to the relevant forum post(s).
Is there any other programming language for which such a database of executable snippets exists? If not, then why should this be something that holds back Livecode's adoption if it doesn't hold back those other languages?

"a cut-down version of the Livecode IDE" sounds like a lot of work. What's the point? The LC IDE is itself a fraction of the complexity of other programming environments. It's even simpler than many of the big name programmer text-editors. If it's too complex for new users, maybe software development isn't for them.

IMO before a lot of work is undertaken on some new prospective solution a) the problem has to be properly identified, b) cheaper/faster solutions should be tried first.
Well, someone is going to ask "Who will do this?". My answer to this is, "Why isn't there an affiliate program for Livecode?"
Any product owner will tell you that the majority of sales are coming from the affiliates.

If Livecode had an affiliate program (generous), and I was given access to these posts to repurpose them for better Google results,
then it will big enough of an incentive to see where this effort will lead to.

Seeing that I also have a day job and limited time, this will be a long-term project. My project idea is in the lines of
getting better Google search results. I paid a lot of money (yearly license) for a software product that will make
the SEO doable. Support of this product is lacking. I think that building the tool in Livecode will result in a more flexible
solution.
I think you might mean "promotion of the product" rather than "support of the product" is lacking. But even if that's what you mean, I don't think we (the users) are in a position to judge whether or not LC Ltd are sufficiently active/effective in promoting the product. What data do we have on which to base this claim? I wouldn't be surprised if e.g. a Google Adword for "best software development tool" wouldn't cost $7 per click i.e. LC Ltd would have to convert 1 in 10 clicks to a paying customer just to make a few $ from that new customer.

I don't know what the ratio is between LC non-paying users and LC paying users. What if that's 19 to 1? If LC pay you 5% of a new license fee for each new user this system would not provide them with any value. If they paid 5% of the license fee for each new paying customer would you consider that "generous"?

My problem with this entire discussion is that it starts off with a mostly erroneous list of "successful" programming languages and a lot of (possibly ungrounded) assumptions by people. For example, the B4X forum lists a similar number of members as this forum, with a similar number online at any particular time. The Xojo forum doesn't provide those kinds of stats. But if one looks at the activity levels, it doesn't look much more active than this forum. Am I comparing LC to dissimilar products? Or do people have unrealistic expectations? In what way is LC Ltd failing to entice users if the levels of user activity are similar with similar products?

IMO the first thing LC Ltd should be doing is making some small changes to their website to bring in more of the people who reach the website. I suggest everyone reading this visit Livecode.com with the attitude "if I ended up on this website not knowing anything about this product":
  • where is the readily available information on what this product is like to use
  • what kind of person like me is using it and for what purposes
  • how long has this product been around, how has it progressed
  • where are the videos of people using the product
  • what kind of beginner training is available
  • what kind of advanced things are people doing with this technology
  • is it easy to get help when I run into problems
I don't think most of the answers to those questions are very positive based on a couple of minutes spent on the website. Those are the kinds of questions I ask myself whenever I'm looking at a new technology.

So my guess is that a lot of the people who find the website leave within a few minutes because they can't find answers to those questions. For example, IMO some of the Beginner sessions from the LC conferences should be on the website in fairly prominent positions and available for free. A link to the forum (and forum stats) should be prominent. That the conferences have taken place and all the topics covered over the years are not even discoverable on the website (the 2020/2021 online conference is hidden 3 links deep). If there is now no money being made from, say, the 2017 conference, why not put it online for free? The forum is even hidden Below the Line on the Resources page of the website, when IMO it should be linked on the home page (other companies who are aiming ONLY at big corporate customers have a link to their Forum on the home page).

Somewhere I saw a tool that attempts to calculate the average time users spend on websites. It estimated the average person who lands on Livecode.com doesn't spend 2 minutes on the site. I can't know how accurate that tool is. But LC Ltd must have that data. It could be that LC Ltd manages to get 100s of views of its website before one visitor converts into a user. I wouldn't be surprised if many people don't go passed the text of "Start your 10 day trial". I would bet that 99% of those who might try LC don't need the features of the paid version (or at least don't need those features in the first 10 days). So why put them off with the idea they have to pay after 10 days?

I'd welcome the user base increasing 10x or 100x. I suspect the user base is 10x bigger than it was 20 years ago. But we don't have those stats, nor how much is spent on advertising or where (and to some extent that's not our business), nor how long someone spends on Livecode.com before bouncing away. So it's hard to say if there's a problem and what that problem is.

danieg
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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by danieg » Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:43 pm

I think you might mean "promotion of the product" rather than "support of the product" is lacking. But even if that's what you mean, I don't think we (the users) are in a position to judge whether or not LC Ltd are sufficiently active/effective in promoting the product. What data do we have on which to base this claim? I wouldn't be surprised if e.g. a Google Adword for "best software development tool" wouldn't cost $7 per click i.e. LC Ltd would have to convert 1 in 10 clicks to a paying customer just to make a few $ from that new customer.

I don't know what the ratio is between LC non-paying users and LC paying users. What if that's 19 to 1? If LC pay you 5% of a new license fee for each new user this system would not provide them with any value. If they paid 5% of the license fee for each new paying customer would you consider that "generous"?
@ Bernard. What I meant by "support of the product" is for a totally different product (SEO promotion).
I tried to find a good enough reason for approx two years in order to use Livecode more productively. (I have an Indie license).
Red or Visual Basic are my other two options.

LC need to determine what a typical user would look for, and base their SEO efforts on that criteria.

An affiliate program with decent percentage will allow them to promote Livecode at almost no cost.

stam
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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by stam » Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:51 pm

Looking up LiveCode functions and capabilities itself is not a problem, as search engines do a great job and locating useful posts and this forum is amazing at helping us newbies - in fact this forum is genuinely the nicest and most helpful programming forums i've ever come across. As mentioned, what may be lacking is SEO.

The only thing i would add is that the User Guide, available as PDF from within LC, is not online or available to search engines; i had a question a few months ago that Richard very kindly pointed me to a well written section in the manual - but even though i had thoroughly googled for this, i had no idea it was there. This really should be available online - it's a great resource and represents probably hundreds of hours of authoring time and it's not receiving the exposure it deserves.

Bernard wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:29 pm
If I search for "Livecode samples" then the first 10 results from Google are useful and relevant. Including a link to a Udemy course that I had no idea existed, taken by 643 students and rated 4.2 out of 5 by them. https://www.udemy.com/course/livecodemobile/
And herein lies one of the many problems with promoting LC. I knew this course existed, but how many others do? There has to be more that 643 users that would have found this helpful...

I paid for this course as it was advertised about 2 years before i finally invested time properly into LiveCode, on one of the many waves of course discounts Udemy regularly pushes, and when i saw it i became curious and spent $10 on it. I do remember being a bit concerned about paying even this, as there was just the single course on LiveCode, where all other platforms had anywhere between 5 and 20 or more, which gives the impression the platform isn't doing well.

There are regular promotions like this on Udemy, and it's a great way to increase the platform's exposure as these are pushed to the wider non-LC audience - so why aren't there more courses on a platform like this, which has a much wider audience that he LiveCode website?

The Udemy course is actually quite good but it's significantly outdated and incomplete - the teaching schedule promises chapters that don't exist in the course and contacting the course provider (3 years ago now) was fruitless. Unfortunately the author is not available, which again is unusual for Udemy courses where authors make their living from these and are usually extremely responsive.

Mobile app creation is a very common search topic on Udemy - including more LiveCode courses there focusing on mobile apps as a hook and then more in-depth courses otherwise, would most certainly have a positive impact. Just investing in a handful of courses like this (with some smaller ones that would could be used for promotions as 1-2 more expensive ones to recoup the investment) should be financially viable; but it does require long term commitment, the courses that do best are the ones that are kept up-to-date, with responsive authors (who will typically have Discord servers as a chat/forum hybrid).

But it's not like there aren't a large amount of courses from LiveCode already available that couldn't be pushed to Udemy instead of being kept behind the paywall on the website, where those already using LiveCode may invest in, but those who don't use LiveCode wouldn't know anything about. Surely the investment in pushing some of these courses to Udemy would be minimal!
Again this comes back to marketing...

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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by Bernard » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:55 am

The Tiobe index of programming languages has 274 languages in it and 130 languages of them are the names of languages of which I've never even heard in 40 years of programming. And their list of 274 languages is far from complete - two of the languages I studied in my computing degree are not even in the list.

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/progr ... efinition/

Livecode is not in the top 50 most used languages, but it is in the top 100. There are thus several hundred programming languages that are less popular than Livecode.

And when one considers the top 50 languages mostly they fill specific niches whilst Livecode is more flexible than most of those languages. Livecode won't necessarily be as performant as those more specific languages, but this "loss" is counter-balanced by LC being more flexible (most of them alone cannot produce GUI apps that run cross-platform).

At least 10 of those top 20 languages will have been taught to university students for the past 20 years. That gives those languages free mind-share and a big user base because of that. In the UK alone there are 130,000 students studying degrees in computing every year. Globally that number must be in the millions each year.

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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by stam » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:26 am

Very good and insightful points.

Be that as it may: LiveCode have created a huge amount of educational resources and there are many ready-made courses behind a paywall on the website, only really available existing users.
The cost/effort of putting these on platforms like Udemy is both likely to create an additional income stream and increase awareness of the platform.

I know i enjoyed the udemy course 3 years ago; but it stopped short of delivering all the chapters promised in the curriculum, the author was uncontactable and this was the only course available, which put me off investing in an indy licence then (although i did 2 years later because of an offer from LiveCode - which by the way was spread by 'word of mouth' by a user on a XOJO forum, not by any actual advertising from LiveCode - very nearly missed it).

Bernard
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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by Bernard » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:58 pm

I found the website where I saw the estimated stats for Livecode.com. https://www.similarweb.com/website/livecode.com/
  1. Avg. Visit Duration 00:01:23
  2. Pages per Visit 1.93
  3. Bounce Rate 73.25%
76% of people get there through a search engine looking mostly for these terms:

livecode , live code , livecoding , live coding , livecode amazon

Although those terms are only about 11% of all the search terms that might lead someone to the site. LC Ltd would have the data about what other words/ideas bring people to their site. Whilst terms 3 to 5 above are probably not related to LC per se, I think that it wouldn't take much to get the people who are looking at the concept of "live coding" interested in spending time considering LC as the live coding tool they are seeking.

It would seem to me that the single most productive and cost-effective thing LC Ltd could do is to increase items 1. and 2. in that list and decrease item 3.

A. get rid of "start your free trial"
B. put a link to the forum high up on every page
C. put a couple of the beginner-level videos/training courses there for free

stam
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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by stam » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:30 pm

Bernard wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:58 pm
C. put a couple of the beginner-level videos/training courses there for free
Absolutely - but put the free courses on Udemy for free as well... If you have the courses available anyway and you're not selling for profit I suspect the cost will be zero or negligible to do this, and it's essentially free advertising, without relying on a google redirect...

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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by Bernard » Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:22 am

I am not in the habit of subscribing to services that notify me (I don't like distractions). So I'd missed these YouTube videos on "Onboarding Beginners"

https://www.youtube.com/c/LiveCodeLtd/videos

It would seem to me that these should be embedded on the Livecode home page or at least a link to a page that embedded them. I think they need to be more clearly titled too e.g. "Session 3, LiveCode Q&A Beginners Onboarding Series" doesn't really draw one in, nor does it make it easy for someone who's watched the series to return to find some part of it that confused or interested them.

If it's true that 73% of visitors to Livecode.com bounce after a minute or so, then anything that draws some of them in is worth considering - especially when the material already exists for free but is hidden away on YouTube.

I thought that with the 100s of times I've been on Livecode.com that I knew what instructional information was available on the platform. But I'd completely missed that all these videos existed. If it's deemed that Livecode.com is already too busy as a website, then the videos could be embedded on Livecode.org . Forget that - I just checked and it looks like Livecode.org gets very few visitors, so maybe not worth putting them there (maybe some pages of text relating to them as "learning to use Livecode" might bring people to that site to see those videos).

I note that Livecode YT channel has 5,000 subscribers too. I was surprised by that number. By contrast, the B4X channel (which is one of the principal introductions to that IDE) has only 2,000 subscribers.

On watching some of those videos, I think they fail as instructional videos. The resolution is simply not high enough to allow someone to read what is written in the IDE window. I don't know if that's because they are recorded at a sufficiently high resolution but YouTube just downgrades the quality to reduce the load on their storage/bandwidth.

stam
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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by stam » Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:41 am

This is part of the rub. LiveCode have created a vast educational resource for the platform. But it’s been let down by website design that either don’t link or hide these away behind many layers that not only liveCode users but especially those not using liveCode but wanting to have a peak will struggle to find.

These resources won’t be of great value to seasoned users (although may be), new/intermediate users and especially those wanting a peak without committing to a new learning curve are really the target audience.
But they are also the ones least likely to find these resources I think.
Bernard wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:22 am
I note that Livecode YT channel has 5,000 subscribers too. I was surprised by that number. By contrast, the B4X channel (which is one of the principal introductions to that IDE) has only 2,000 subscribers.
Well, that’s not really a surprise - B4X has only been in existence for about 10 years and has been largely a 1-man operation. Kudos to Erel for getting that done.

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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by jacque » Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:45 pm

B. put a link to the forum high up on every page
I have mixed feelings about that. This is one of the nicest forums in existence with helpful people who jump in simply because they want to help and love the platform. But we also have a few vocal complainers who aren't always as helpful. I know when I'm evaluating a new purchase I always read the one-star reviews first to determine whether the negatives are significant or not. Those who are unfamiliar with LC may not be able to evaluate that correctly.

I'm not saying we can't discuss improvements here, only that the tone of some discussions are more damning than they need to be. And those of us who try to be supportive are sometimes accused of being fanbois and are dismissed.

On the other hand, that doesn't happen too often. We're mostly pretty nice here.
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw dot com
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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by dunbarx » Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:58 pm

Jacque.

I have not forgotten Amthony (sic) Black.

But these days there is nothing close to that, and little even contentious. i think the friendly tenor of the Forum, especially in the beginner's section, and even if the subject matter seems like Martian, would come across clearly, and be very inviting to a new user. That might even lead those newbies to take the plunge.

Craig

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Re: Why is LiveCode not recognized more as an app developer language?

Post by Bernard » Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:48 pm

jacque wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:45 pm
B. put a link to the forum high up on every page
I have mixed feelings about that... the tone of some discussions are more damning than they need to be. And those of us who try to be supportive are sometimes accused of being fanbois and are dismissed.
I did wonder about that. I haven't spent anything like the amount of time here that you have. But LC Ltd could always try making these discussions far more prominent. For example B4X is basically their Forum! Xojo's Forum is the top link beneath their "Support" menu. I know other companies where their "Forum" link is as prominent as B4X's. So that is a risk they are prepared to bear.

LC Ltd. could make such changes to their website iteratively and see what works to stop those 73% of visitors leaving within 1.2 minutes (assuming that those estimated times are accurate). If it turned out that the forums were being abused, LC Ltd could either stop linking prominently or just tighten up the rules of behaviour. After all, we're several years into a world where people are banned from Twitter, Facebook, etc. for just quoting what is said in peer-reviewed scientific articles or for pointing out historical facts. We should probably all start getting used to have restricted freedom of speech.

I think the Forum link is possibly of less immediate importance to a new user than, say, a (high resolution) video on the home page of someone building an app (maybe the calculator example), which ends with the user seeing that app running on iPhone, Windows and even HTML. I think that video could be done in less than 5 minutes of live time (by having the [commented] scripts pre-written & just pasted step by step into the stack). https://andregarzia.com/2019/07/livecod ... rcard.html

Also of importance IMO is a link that shows the timeline of Livecode in terms of major releases and what each release brought. This shows the longevity of the product and the continued enhancements. I've bought software before only to have the company go out of business a year or two later (which disabled the software).

I think the main explanation of what LC brings actually has no purchase for someone who has never compiled an app to an executable.
In LiveCode your application is always running. You can add objects or change the code and instantly see the effect. No other language does this. Editing live applications creates a powerful workflow, so you can build your apps faster and more easily than ever. Simply toggle between ‘run’ and ‘edit’ mode.
To my mind non-programmers will have no idea if this is really something distinctive and important or just mere advertising puff (as the legal jargon terms it). As for those who pitch up looking for "live coding", well, I'm not sure how one convinces those sophisticated programmers that this could be for them.

I think the Forum questions - "how many people are using this", "where would I get help" etc. - come after the stage of someone being persuaded this tool is something they should consider investing time (and maybe money) on.

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