IDE windowed mode

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richmond62
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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by richmond62 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:45 pm

That looks pretty slick Mark!
IFF you are designing things for phones.

I have a school-full of 1024 x 768 monitors for which I need to design full-screen apps
and on my 1600 x 1200 I need to be able to shuffle palettes around, and often-as-not off
onto my "wing" monitors.

If LiveCode were to IMPOSE a single window IDE I would be extremely fekked-off as feel I have no
energy to learn ANOTHER programming language . . .

IFF a single-window IDE were "there" as an option (pace GIMP) then that would seem a good idea.

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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by mtalluto » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:57 pm

Thanks Mark!
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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by mtalluto » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:09 pm

Hi Richmond,

We are solving mobile and desktop with our design. We have spent more time with mobile development issues. When we swing back around to desktop specifics, I am sure there are places where we can make more improvements.

Shuffling palettes around multiple monitors could be a thing of the past. Most tools these days have moved away from the palette design. They have a feature we need in LiveCode called a resizable canvas. This feature goes by many names, but the result is the same. We need to be able to live and fluidly scale groups in LiveCode.

Anyways, I think you will be able to enjoy LiveCode's IDE as it is for now. But, I am sure they are looking at the competition and thinking that the current IDE does not support their goal to increase LiveCode adoption.

If they decide to take on a new IDE concept, it will take time to work through it. The investment will probably negate maintaining the old design. Their team is not big enough to keep two IDEs going.

LiveCode is an incredible tool. I think they will only gain new customers from that decision. I suspect even you Richmond will stick around and fall in love with it all over again.
Mark Talluto
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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by mtalluto » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:12 pm

Intelligent controls are as necessary as the modern IDE. Data-binding, smart resizing, buttons with text placement and icons, table controls with built-in logic, native mobile management when the app is run on mobile, smooth scrolling, screen swiping, and many other ideas could be applied to the existing LiveCode IDE.

Built-in integration with databases would be a good start. Native mobile support is also critical to solving the problems people have when making mobile apps. Proper responsive design is essential. The full-screen modes are easy to use but wasteful with screen real estate. Professional apps use the available space more efficiently. Writing complex "stackResize" handlers is something that we can solve another way.

Deployment to mobile app stores is a pain. We all fight with certificates, profiles, expiration dates, and complex processes in getting a development computer ready.

We decided to break our apps down into bitesize database records. Our design allows us to store our apps in the cloud on a database. We made bespoke players for iOS and Android. We will also make desktop versions of these players.

When a developer saves their work, we are using a sync command that does a diff. This model makes saving more efficient. A developer can push updates in real-time to clients. The player caches the app locally on the device and gets the incremental changes using sync.

The player model will not work for everyone, but it works well for workplace innovation apps (vertical market apps). When needed, we will support complete standalone building using our player as the wrapper. This is essential for horizontal market apps and apps that want complete control over their branding.

In short, our new IDE helps us with the organization and placement of elements (guidelines, snapping, responsive design). Our intelligent elements eliminate coding for data binding and mobile management. Finally, our distribution model uses a database for easy deployment.

None of this is new. We brought the best ideas from other tools into one place.
Mark Talluto
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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by paulkapil08 » Fri May 14, 2021 12:40 pm

I personally don’t feel any need to be able to see other apps while I’m working on code and vice versa... so for me at least, being able to see other apps while I’m doing stuff in LC doesn’t make any sense.

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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by richmond62 » Fri May 14, 2021 7:41 pm

As I do a LOT of my graphic work with GIMP, and for Indic writing systems I need to refer to PDF documents and FontForge
any IDE that blocks everything else out is rubbish.

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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by bogs » Fri May 14, 2021 11:14 pm

You have 3 screens, how on earth could a single window IDE block as you put it, "everything else" out !?

Even if you didn't have 3 other screens, I'm pretty sure you have a way to look at windows under other windows, either by opening them from the taskbar or whatever.

And just a few posts ago (probably elsewhere) you mentioned developing programs that are stretched "full screen" (desktop size windows). How do you look at anything else at that point?

Methinks you doth protest too much hee hee :P
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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by richmond62 » Sat May 15, 2021 9:46 am

1. I do NOT have 3 screens attached to every computer I use for teaching in my school.

2. One of my laptops (the one I cart around) does not have a secondary monitor.

3. I do, indeed, develop "full-screen" apps for my school computers (1024 * 780); but I develop
then on a far higher resolution monitor so I can work on the tarty graphics with GIMP &
Inkscape at the same time.

4. I do not protest too much, but I do protest quite a bit as I have 45 years experience of computer programming:
28 of which have been with machines sporting Graphic User Interfaces, and have seen how very many people
use those machines with GUIs, and how they 'dance' between applications when they want to do more than simply
write an email to Mum.

As LiveCode claims to be the successor to HyperCard it should not lose sight of the fact that Hypercard was meant to be
the programming suite that could be used by the hoi poloi as well as the programmers qua programmers . . .

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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by bogs » Sat May 15, 2021 10:12 am

Then you've answered this statement you posted previously all on your own ....
richmond62 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:41 pm
As I do a LOT of my graphic work with GIMP, and for Indic writing systems I need to refer to PDF documents and FontForge
any IDE that blocks everything else out is rubbish.
richmond62 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:46 am
3. I do, indeed, develop "full-screen" apps for my school computers (1024 * 780); but I develop
then on a far higher resolution monitor
so I can work on the tarty graphics with GIMP &
Inkscape at the same time.
A single window MDI style interface IDE is resizeable, at least, in any IDE I've ever used they are. The main difference between that and a paletted solution (like Delphi (pre .Net), Lc, etc) is that the palettes are contained as part of the main window AND your unlikely to loose track of them.
I do not protest too much, but I do protest quite a bit
Amen brother, amen hahah. You keep right on going with it too, that part of you I don't think I'd want to change, many times it has made my day :twisted:
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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by richmond62 » Sat May 15, 2021 10:20 am

as part of the main window AND your unlikely to loose track of them.
If you are the type of person who loses track of palettes one wonders how you can program anything at all.

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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by bogs » Sat May 15, 2021 10:30 am

richmond62 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 10:20 am
as part of the main window AND your unlikely to loose track of them.
If you are the type of person who loses track of palettes one wonders how you can program anything at all.
If your the type of person who has never lost track of a free floating palette, then one wonders how you could say you have more than 1 window or program open while your programming....
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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by jacque » Sat May 15, 2021 6:10 pm

I have one monitor and I keep all app windows arranged so I can flip among them quickly. I like the current IDE because I can see reference material in BBEdit next to the script editor when parsing complex text. I can scroll the BBEdit window without bringing it to the front while typing code. Given the type of projects I work on, this is a requirement.

I've never lost a floating palette, they are always where I left them. I tried a second monitor once and couldn't get used to it, and I tried multiple desktops and found it more trouble than it was worth. Too much mousing to scroll reference material. I've been at this too long to change I guess.
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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by richmond62 » Sat May 15, 2021 6:43 pm

My Granny said, "Taste starts and finishes in the mouth."

If those who favour a single window IDE want to design one, let them.

Just make sure that a single window IDE is an option so those of us who prefer
they way things are at the moment can stick with that.

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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by stam » Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:35 am

FourthWorld wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:48 am
I’m also not friends with the documentation in-app - but I now use Dash.app instead, so much better. Just can’t launch from IDE sadly.
What is Dash.app?

I'm no fan of the Dictionary either. LC native fields handle everything the Dict needs quite well. I never raised a fuss when they were converting it to browser dependency because I thought that would at least compel them to make a working web browser widget for Linux; I'd be happy to forego good docs for myself if I could have a browser widget for my customers. But alas, now we have neither a docs window that looks anything like the rest of the app nor a working Linux web widget, so my hopes were double dashed. :(
While not a browser widget, for what it's worth i came across Zeal (https://zealdocs.org), a Linux and Windows app , that reads the Dash docsets (of which there is one for liveCode maintained by James Hale , who's also created the nifty stack Make Docset if you want to create documentation appropriate to your installed version of LC). In Dash, you add the LiveCode docset add via the user-generated rather than provided docset list, i presume the same is true of Zeal. Might be worth a look for those tired of the built-in documentation.

Apparently it doesn't cover the entire functionality of Dash on MacOS but installing the text expander utility AutoKey completes the missing link (although this may be linux-only). Together these apparently cover all the functionality of Dash on MacOS, according to this blog post.

Hope some find this helpful - i continuously use Dash on Mac and while not perfect (can't launch a search directly from the script editor), it's just so much better that the build-in dictionary...

Stam

---------
EDIT: I've noticed that Dash now provides a Docset for XOJO in their 'main docsets', whereas LiveCode remains a 'user contributed' Docset. I presume this is because XOJO have been on the ball - would be nice to see the same for LiveCode...

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Re: IDE windowed mode

Post by richmond62 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:10 am

I downloaded James Hales' stack and used it to generate a .docset file here on macOS 11 beta 3, which it did
superbly. However what I do not know is how to convert the LiveCode.docset folder into a package.

It is, of course, perfectly possible to read any of the HTML documents generated in the

LiveCode.docset/Contents/Resources/Documents folder which is a lot better than my feeble attempts at fossicking around
inside the LC Mac packages.

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