IDE windowed mode
Moderators: FourthWorld, heatherlaine, Klaus, kevinmiller
Re: IDE windowed mode
I’m not fussed about a single window system. Mostly LC works just fine, hence everyone here is using it frequently.
My pet peeve is about the multitude of floating palettes. If there was a sensible way to consolidate and dominate them that would be just fine. Not uncommon to have the app browser, stack, card and object properties showing as well as msg box.
Devolution does a fine job with the SE, but with all other elements it puts everything back to a default state when re-opening (ie it doesn’t remember multiple palettes, it doesn’t remember which branches of the browser were disclosed, it doesn’t remember your position in the documentation etc) marking it less useable.
Would be nice if all the above elements was just 1 element to show/hide/minimise/whatever. But maybe also launch separate palettes if needed.
I’m also not friends with the documentation in-app - but I now use Dash.app instead, so much better. Just can’t launch from IDE sadly.
A few changes like this would probably go a long way. I guess I could roll my own I suppose - but I just don’t have the time and even if I did I would never do as good a job as experts like you guys, so that’s a non-starter...
My pet peeve is about the multitude of floating palettes. If there was a sensible way to consolidate and dominate them that would be just fine. Not uncommon to have the app browser, stack, card and object properties showing as well as msg box.
Devolution does a fine job with the SE, but with all other elements it puts everything back to a default state when re-opening (ie it doesn’t remember multiple palettes, it doesn’t remember which branches of the browser were disclosed, it doesn’t remember your position in the documentation etc) marking it less useable.
Would be nice if all the above elements was just 1 element to show/hide/minimise/whatever. But maybe also launch separate palettes if needed.
I’m also not friends with the documentation in-app - but I now use Dash.app instead, so much better. Just can’t launch from IDE sadly.
A few changes like this would probably go a long way. I guess I could roll my own I suppose - but I just don’t have the time and even if I did I would never do as good a job as experts like you guys, so that’s a non-starter...
-
- Livecode Opensource Backer
- Posts: 9359
- Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:17 am
- Location: Bulgaria
Re: IDE windowed mode
Single window IDE or not you are going to need a lot of parking space if you don'tNot uncommon to have the app browser, stack, card and object properties showing as well as msg box.
want any of those overlapping.
-
Last edited by richmond62 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: IDE windowed mode
Probably not as much as you think - I imagine it would fit in the standard width of a palette and the height of the screen, with say 3 tabs (as icons), 1 for all properties, 1 for browser, 1 for documentation for example. It could be parked to 1 side of the screen And then show/hide with a key combo. Realistically SE would have to be separate as it is now. But that would reduce the number of movable parts dramatically...richmond62 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:17 amSingle window IDE or not you are going to need a lot of parking space if you don't want any of those overlapping.
For a laptop screen (with typically width >> height) that would be a real boon - but may not suit all screens I guess....
Just have a look at how much detail IDEs like VIsual Studio and Xcode put at your fingertips that way...
-
- VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
- Posts: 9824
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
- Location: Los Angeles
- Contact:
Re: IDE windowed mode
Got a sketch of that ideal layout? Making it happen might be a good group project.
Richard Gaskin
LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems
LiveCode Group on Facebook
LiveCode Group on LinkedIn
LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems
LiveCode Group on Facebook
LiveCode Group on LinkedIn
-
- Livecode Opensource Backer
- Posts: 9359
- Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:17 am
- Location: Bulgaria
Re: IDE windowed mode
Of course this is the perfect moment to point out that exchanging the Stockholm syndrome for the FourthWorld syndrome(and arguably creating Devolution was a way to break out of the Stockholm syndrome )
might be an improvement, but you are still "locked into" someone else's idea of perfection.
While that may not be a bad thing (and with ALL of FourthWorld's "syndromes" they do seem pretty good), the main point that
may be being missed here is that the LiveCode IDE, being a bit like a LEGO kit, rather than some monolithic one-size-fits-all kind
of thing, allows us each to indulge ourselves in our own private 'syndromes' and set up our LiveCode desktop exactly the way it
suits each of us best.
Last edited by richmond62 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
- Posts: 9824
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
- Location: Los Angeles
- Contact:
Re: IDE windowed mode
Thanks for that. I thought about hiding vs closing, and at the time closing won if only because it was less to think about.stam wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:47 amDevolution does a fine job with the SE, but with all other elements it puts everything back to a default state when re-opening (ie it doesn’t remember multiple palettes, it doesn’t remember which branches of the browser were disclosed, it doesn’t remember your position in the documentation etc) marking it less useable.
Would be nice if all the above elements was just 1 element to show/hide/minimise/whatever. But maybe also launch separate palettes if needed.
One challenge with hiding is that context changes, so when it's shown again it might not be what you expect.
But maybe hiding the Browser? That one seems a good candidate. In fact, the more I think about it the more it reduces my desire to make a replacement plugin (I still need to finish my drop-in Script Editor replacement), so I'm game for options that save me time.
Have you seen Geoff Canyon's revNavigator? That may quench your thirst. Then you could just assign it to devo's Browser button and be quite happy.
What is Dash.app?I’m also not friends with the documentation in-app - but I now use Dash.app instead, so much better. Just can’t launch from IDE sadly.
I'm no fan of the Dictionary either. LC native fields handle everything the Dict needs quite well. I never raised a fuss when they were converting it to browser dependency because I thought that would at least compel them to make a working web browser widget for Linux; I'd be happy to forego good docs for myself if I could have a browser widget for my customers. But alas, now we have neither a docs window that looks anything like the rest of the app nor a working Linux web widget, so my hopes were double dashed.
Richard Gaskin
LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems
LiveCode Group on Facebook
LiveCode Group on LinkedIn
LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems
LiveCode Group on Facebook
LiveCode Group on LinkedIn
-
- Livecode Opensource Backer
- Posts: 9359
- Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:17 am
- Location: Bulgaria
Re: IDE windowed mode
This is all that I could find, and I see very little connexion with the way the LC IDE might be displayed:
- -
- -
I do feel that the earlier recension was better.I'm no fan of the Dictionary either.
Last edited by richmond62 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: IDE windowed mode
Hi Stam,
I feel your pain on this topic.
Dash is really an excellent app, and so, almost 2 years ago,
did add it to my private BBLC environment with some strong cosmetic modifications...
Right-click on a word in the SE (BBEdit) and almost instantly get the doc opened.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe wrote: Den lieb' ich, der Unmögliches begehrt.
Regards,
Thierry
!
SUNNY-TDZ.COM doesn't belong to me since 2021.
To contact me, use the Private messages. Merci.
!
SUNNY-TDZ.COM doesn't belong to me since 2021.
To contact me, use the Private messages. Merci.
!
Re: IDE windowed mode
This is how you would integrate with Dash on Mac: https://kapeli.com/dash_guide#integrationrichmond62 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:55 amThis is all that I could find, and I see very little connexion with the way the LC IDE might be displayed:
SShot 2021-04-13 at 11.53.42.png
Apparently Dash docsets (e.g. LiveCode) can be read by native apps on all platforms, but don't know how well these would integrate, i presume it's similar...
James Hale has maintains a fairly up-to-date LiveCode (LCS/LCB) docset for Dash, i use it all the time...
The only downside is that Dash for Mac is paid app (i think it's free on iOS) -- i get this through Setapp (an app subscription service for Mac/iOS), as i use many many apps on this and it works out cheaper than buying... plus it's a way to support smaller devs.
Re: IDE windowed mode
I have both single window and multiwindow IDE's.
Single window is nice, clean, and neat, but incredibly inflexible, typically with a layout that is imposed by the tool's author, limit what is on the screen and how much of your interface you can see (because you have controls in the margins, which means that for layouts that are a larger percentage of your screen, you might not be able to see the whole thing at the same time). It's not that it's bad, it's just more organized, more structured, and less flexible.
Xojo, for instance, has a single window interface, but you don't have the controls view and the properties view up at the same time. You also don't have the method editor and the layout designer up at the same time.
4D has a hybrid setup, with the structure of the DB in the back, then method/class/form/list pickers hovering, plugins wherever you can find room, and the form editor and method editor usually on top of something else. 4D's form editor is a single interface, with properties, controls, views, etc. all in one monolithic window, and then toolbars across the top, below another toolbar, with a tools palette on the left, and a scrolling list of properties (with tabs for more properties!) on the right.
Obviously LC's interface is at least somewhat inherited from HC and SC, but there are reasons for doing it that way, too. There are so many third-party tools that you can add directly to your work environment that have their own interfaces, and there always have been, since stack authors realized they could add their own interfaces right to HC. When I use LC, I'm also using tools like Navigator, Devolution, AirLaunch, and at least six Scott Rossi masterpieces. If there was only one window, I would be constantly juggling the views and layers. I am sure the interface would evolve with that need, but I don't know if it would be better.
Single window is nice, clean, and neat, but incredibly inflexible, typically with a layout that is imposed by the tool's author, limit what is on the screen and how much of your interface you can see (because you have controls in the margins, which means that for layouts that are a larger percentage of your screen, you might not be able to see the whole thing at the same time). It's not that it's bad, it's just more organized, more structured, and less flexible.
Xojo, for instance, has a single window interface, but you don't have the controls view and the properties view up at the same time. You also don't have the method editor and the layout designer up at the same time.
4D has a hybrid setup, with the structure of the DB in the back, then method/class/form/list pickers hovering, plugins wherever you can find room, and the form editor and method editor usually on top of something else. 4D's form editor is a single interface, with properties, controls, views, etc. all in one monolithic window, and then toolbars across the top, below another toolbar, with a tools palette on the left, and a scrolling list of properties (with tabs for more properties!) on the right.
Obviously LC's interface is at least somewhat inherited from HC and SC, but there are reasons for doing it that way, too. There are so many third-party tools that you can add directly to your work environment that have their own interfaces, and there always have been, since stack authors realized they could add their own interfaces right to HC. When I use LC, I'm also using tools like Navigator, Devolution, AirLaunch, and at least six Scott Rossi masterpieces. If there was only one window, I would be constantly juggling the views and layers. I am sure the interface would evolve with that need, but I don't know if it would be better.
-
- VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
- Posts: 9824
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
- Location: Los Angeles
- Contact:
Re: IDE windowed mode
The difference between live software and a drawing of software cannot be overstated.
LC is flexible enough that we could take the "live" out of it and build a tool for drawing pictures of software that later become software in a separate environment, like most non-xTalks do.
But I believe it's useful to remain aware that we'd be taking something out of it.
LC is flexible enough that we could take the "live" out of it and build a tool for drawing pictures of software that later become software in a separate environment, like most non-xTalks do.
But I believe it's useful to remain aware that we'd be taking something out of it.
Richard Gaskin
LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems
LiveCode Group on Facebook
LiveCode Group on LinkedIn
LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems
LiveCode Group on Facebook
LiveCode Group on LinkedIn
-
- VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:02 pm
- Location: Seattle, WA
- Contact:
Re: IDE windowed mode
I have been following this topic closely. I love LiveCode and what you can do with it. Like others here, I have looked at other IDEs to see what is going on in different development tools.
LiveCode is unique in that as we layout our cards, the controls on the screen are real and ready to be tested at any moment. We can switch from an edit mode to a browse (run) mode. No compile-time is needed. Our productivity is at max because of this.
Some great ideas are coming from other tools and their IDEs that I think we should consider adopting. I am a fan of having a single-window design for the LiveCode IDE. It feels more organized and ready to support me as I work on a given project.
Building a new IDE for LiveCode is a significant effort. I have some first-hand experience with this. The reward of such an effort is that you can make software faster. The improved productivity is not only because of the modern IDE but also because you can make the controls more thoughtful and valuable.
Imagine dropping a .CSV file on your screen that would auto-build a table that is bound to data. The table would be fully functional in the IDE and on the target platform. It would solve the mobile scrolling issue by switching to LiveCode native controls on the fly when run on the appropriate device. Your table would out of the box, allow column resizing, editing of data, scrolling, caching of data, and all the other features one needs.
So, when thinking about a new IDE for LiveCode, we need to consider taking the controls to the next level. Our team at Canela has been developing such an IDE with intelligent elements. We need this for our next-generation apps. We are competing with larger teams that are using more modern technologies. Our new IDE with smart elements will allow us to develop apps more quickly than ever before.
http://www.livecloud.io/pub/appli/New%20IDE%20OG.png
LiveCode is unique in that as we layout our cards, the controls on the screen are real and ready to be tested at any moment. We can switch from an edit mode to a browse (run) mode. No compile-time is needed. Our productivity is at max because of this.
Some great ideas are coming from other tools and their IDEs that I think we should consider adopting. I am a fan of having a single-window design for the LiveCode IDE. It feels more organized and ready to support me as I work on a given project.
Building a new IDE for LiveCode is a significant effort. I have some first-hand experience with this. The reward of such an effort is that you can make software faster. The improved productivity is not only because of the modern IDE but also because you can make the controls more thoughtful and valuable.
Imagine dropping a .CSV file on your screen that would auto-build a table that is bound to data. The table would be fully functional in the IDE and on the target platform. It would solve the mobile scrolling issue by switching to LiveCode native controls on the fly when run on the appropriate device. Your table would out of the box, allow column resizing, editing of data, scrolling, caching of data, and all the other features one needs.
So, when thinking about a new IDE for LiveCode, we need to consider taking the controls to the next level. Our team at Canela has been developing such an IDE with intelligent elements. We need this for our next-generation apps. We are competing with larger teams that are using more modern technologies. Our new IDE with smart elements will allow us to develop apps more quickly than ever before.
http://www.livecloud.io/pub/appli/New%20IDE%20OG.png
Mark Talluto
--
Canela
design - develop - deploy: https://appli.io
Database and Cloud for LiveCode Developers: https://livecloud.io
Company: https://canelasoftware.com
--
Canela
design - develop - deploy: https://appli.io
Database and Cloud for LiveCode Developers: https://livecloud.io
Company: https://canelasoftware.com
Re: IDE windowed mode
That looks pretty slick Mark!
-
- VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:02 pm
- Location: Seattle, WA
- Contact:
Re: IDE windowed mode
Thanks Bogs.
Mark Talluto
--
Canela
design - develop - deploy: https://appli.io
Database and Cloud for LiveCode Developers: https://livecloud.io
Company: https://canelasoftware.com
--
Canela
design - develop - deploy: https://appli.io
Database and Cloud for LiveCode Developers: https://livecloud.io
Company: https://canelasoftware.com
-
- VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
- Posts: 3581
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:36 am
- Location: Berkeley, CA, US
- Contact:
Re: IDE windowed mode
Mark-
That does indeed look good.
I've often thought of making data-aware controls but never followed up on it.
Looking forward to seeing what your team comes up with.
That does indeed look good.
I've often thought of making data-aware controls but never followed up on it.
Looking forward to seeing what your team comes up with.
PowerDebug http://powerdebug.ahsoftware.net
PowerTools http://www.ahsoftware.net/PowerTools/PowerTools.irev
PowerTools http://www.ahsoftware.net/PowerTools/PowerTools.irev