ordered Array

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jacque
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Re: ordered Array

Post by jacque » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:58 am

Something outside of LC, assuming the program itself is not corrupt, is causing all this.
Some of it is LC, it's a common complaint on Windows. Mark W. has found a fix for the slow saving which should make it into the next dp release if it isn't already in today's dp4.

Sparkout's list of ways to speed things up is good. Even though I'm on a Mac, I've turned off all the editor extras except for auto-formatting and bracket completions (I don't even use color, but I think I'm the only one who is comfortable with a black wall of text.) Those extras are scripted rather than being in the engine and they take a lot of time. I saw a noticeable speed hit when I had more of those options turned on, and one time I hung for several seconds even on my Mac.

One thing that actually is outside LC is anti-virus checks on Windows which interfere substantially during a save since they scan the file every time it changes. Mark's fix will speed up writing to the file but can't help the anti-virus scans.
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Re: ordered Array

Post by jacque » Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:03 am

foosmaster wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:32 pm
maybe I can rollback to 7.5, seems like a good idea ...
I wouldn't do that, LC 7 was even slower. It was the first unicode version and hadn't been optimized yet. If you want real speed you'd have to go back to LC 6, but you'd lose all sorts of functionality and a lot of new features and syntax.
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Re: ordered Array

Post by SparkOut » Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:58 am

I forgot to mention the other thing that might help at certain times:
During a slowdown / laggy lockup spell, check to see if the LiveCode Updater is running in the system tray. If it is, kill off that task.
dunbarx wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:12 am
But that "several seconds" is the issue tells me this is not a LC problem. Such slowness would have caused a riot long ago.
It is an LC problem in as much as making it behave nicely on Windows. In v 8.x in particular there were script typing delays of 30 seconds or more. I literally couldn't use it. 7.x was very difficult to use too, with much instability. It's definitely not the Windows users' fault that happen[ed/s].

Some new users might have tried to cause a riot, or ended up calling LiveCode names and storming off. Old timers try to be more constructive and philosophical. It's hard to give specific recipes so we just do our best to work with things. The mothership is heavily Mac-centric, we know. It is not their fault, the origin come from Mac sources, the largest user base and they have their own problems to face with the constant shifting sands of Apple directions. In my ideal world all the LC staff should each spend a month at a time using only one operating system and rotating monthly between Linux, Windows and Linux. You'd probably call that punishment. :P

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Re: ordered Array

Post by bogs » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:41 am

SparkOut wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:58 am
In my ideal world all the LC staff should each spend a month at a time using only one operating system and rotating monthly between Linux, Windows and Linux. You'd probably call that punishment.
And they only get to play on their Mac during the solstice, that will teach them! :twisted:
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Re: ordered Array

Post by SparkOut » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:15 pm

Of course I meant using a Mac on monthly rotation would be allowed. Linux users would probably burst if they actually got double dibs. :lol:

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Re: ordered Array

Post by bogs » Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:51 pm

I dunno, I like it the way it was stated as quoted :twisted:
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Re: ordered Array

Post by foosmaster » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:36 am

I totally agree with everything said and it IS true - on linux it works quirky but MUCH better
but being mainly a Windows user - due to my son's requirement, and also trying to deploy to web which is a total waste of time, this is my experience on windows:
* too slow to work with
* web -> generates errors even on empty projects
* web -> has a HUGE download (27Mb)

IMO - if you want to have a windows product, it has to be working, if you don't - just remove it alltogether ... you can't put a product that out of the box simply isn't usable and expect users to come into forums and try to fix it (or even worse shift to another OS)

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Re: ordered Array

Post by bogs » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:42 am

foosmaster wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:36 am
IMO - if you want to have a windows product, it has to be working, if you don't - just remove it alltogether ... you can't put a product that out of the box simply isn't usable and expect users to come into forums and try to fix it (or even worse shift to another OS)
You know, you actually make me wonder if you took into consideration any of the above mentioned suggestions by actual Windows users of the product (which I am not, btw).

Which vers. of Windows are you running this on? 7? 8? 10?
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Re: ordered Array

Post by mrcoollion » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:21 am

Not much to do today so here are my 10 cents in the bucket as a LC on Windows (LC 9.6 dp4)user from the beginning.

Overall LC on Windows works well however there are some things that the LC team need to work at..
  • The most urgent one is the impossibility of using the Message box. As soon as it is started LC on Windows becomes annoyingly slow. This has been there for many releases and also the last release does not do any better :cry: . So I do not use the Message box at all although it is a great tool to use during debugging.
  • Mouse pointer does not function well during programming (I mean showing pointers that are not appropriate for the task of the mouse at that place).
  • Saving a stack is sometimes a very long process (at least in the previous versions). I cannot figure out why :o .
  • As for the EDI performance, LC is Ok but no more. I have seen increased slowness of the EDI in the last versions. Especially when going through the statements of the scrip in debug mode it is, in my opinion, to slow and just about workable. However as bad as the problems below I do not have. And the Stack I am now working on already has 3000 or more lines of script and at least 10 Cards.
IDE performance which is VERY poor, not only save, sometimes opening a card, or switching to debug mode - more often than not, I have to wait over 5 seconds for the IDE to unfreeze, this is crazy, and the scale of the program is REALLY small (2 screens, a few hundrands lines of code, 800K all in all for the LiveCode binary)

As for a small wish list:
  • Also I would like LC Engine to be able to use much smaller and much bigger numbers than currently possible. Especially for those people (students) that would like to use LC for building scientific applications.
  • While at it it would be nice if there are more scientific mathematical possibilities for those same group of people
  • Also a good Charts option would be nice. I am using echarts (https://www.echartsjs.com)for graphical representation but I do need to do a lot of tricks in combination with the browser widget to use it
  • Better integration with the mobile platform
  • Put the web development option in all licenses without additional cost.
On the topic Arrays. Yes, you do need to take into account all the things that has been said before, but my opinion is that LC does a good job here. I use them all the time and am going as far as using them for storing data in a structural way. E.g. In every user field, I have a simple routine that saves the users data automatically in a global array and saves it to disk.

Regards,

Paul

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Re: ordered Array

Post by bogs » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:06 pm

I spent most of yesterday running tests in the various 'post 8.1' versions on Win 10. Lc 8.1.9, suprisingly enough, seemed to work the smoothest, had the message box open the whole time, PB open the whole time, Editor open (almost) the whole time, did a lot of breakpoints and stepping, etc etc etc. Of course, since it was only a day long worth of testing, the code I was writing didn't approach any of the lofty standards set in the post above, but it was enough to produce a completely usable gas mileage log program.

I now think I've seen more of the post 7.x series IDE than I ever thought I would, and that is enough for me.
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Re: ordered Array

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:34 am

foosmaster wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:36 am
I totally agree with everything said and it IS true - on linux it works quirky but MUCH better
but being mainly a Windows user - due to my son's requirement, and also trying to deploy to web which is a total waste of time, this is my experience on windows:
* too slow to work with
* web -> generates errors even on empty projects
* web -> has a HUGE download (27Mb)
The Win issue is important to me. I'd be interested in seeing if I can help pin down why your system shows consistently slow performance, while mine is intermittent. If you have the patience for that sort of thing let me know and I'll come up with some tests to pin it down.

As for the HTML export, what you see is an inevitable part of deploying with Emscripten. I'm not so sure LiveCode needs to become the only desktop application tool that also doubles as a web authoring tool, so I'm with you, maybe better to label it with something that better reflects its current limited status.
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Re: ordered Array

Post by mrcoollion » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:19 am

If you have the patience for that sort of thing let me know and I'll come up with some tests to pin it down
I will also be happy to test, I need LC to run smoothly on Windows as it is my only development environment.

Regards,

Paul

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