Ah the use list ...

[richmond62]

Frankly, bogs, that just about "takes the biscuit" and I don't think anyone round
these parts can begin to compete.

I hope your nephew has got his "just desserts" (and I don't mean a packet of biscuits).

[bogs]

He got his just deserts at our expense, with all the money he saved with this arrangement, he bought a house in Hawaii and moved there, but didn't take care of the car he left on her property, nor the garbage he left there, nor a room full of stuff that is still there, so even though the current tenant has put up with one less room, he is getting free storage off her as well at least till April.

Fuming doesn't begin to describe my temperature just thinking about this kid.

[[-hh]]

I don't think you qualify.

Once again. Though selling nothing I have a business license (incl. HTML5), supported nearly every funding action and provide probably 90% of all examples in fields where LC-the company doesn't do this much (HTML5 and LCB widgets).

Calling me a freeloader or thinking about that may be a privilege of LC-the company shareholders (because I am not a shareholder??)

[bogs]

That is what I mean, I don't think anyone here or at the mother ship interprets you as a free loader. On re-scanning this thread, I saw no one even intimate you were a freeloader? I sure hope I didn't give you the impression you were thought of in such a way, cause that sure isn't my intention.

Just the man-hours alone for all the code you've contributed would dispel any such non-sense, never mind the licenses you hold etc. You are the definition of the anti-freeloader

[richmond62]

a freeloader

As far as I'm concerned anyone who has "put back" into the much-vaunted
LiveCode "community" in a way which has helped people learn how to leverage
LiveCode in previously unthought of ways cannot be described as a freeloader.

There are quite a number of contributors to this list who may never have held an
LC licence, never contributed to one of the fund-raisers, yet have shared their
wisdom, discoveries and so forth: that's not free-loading.

[bogs]

Yah, I'd agree with that

[richmond62]

[FourthWorld]

a freeloader

As far as I'm concerned anyone who has "put back" into the much-vaunted
LiveCode "community" in a way which has helped people learn how to leverage
LiveCode in previously unthought of ways cannot be described as a freeloader.

There are quite a number of contributors to this list who may never have held an
LC licence, never contributed to one of the fund-raisers, yet have shared their
wisdom, discoveries and so forth: that's not free-loading.

Agreed. It's not a word I use with any open source project, nor does LC Ltd, and even Jacque has acknowledged it wasn't the best choice.

And while I can't speak for her, I'm pretty sure she wasn't referring to anyone here. One of the challenges many GPL-governed FOSS projects face is that they're often under-resourced, yet many large corporations rely on their work to run their businesses. As long as the use is for infrastructure, internal to the company and not distributed to others, any use of GPL-governed works is fine.

This isn't a problem legally, or even ethically, since the GPL is indeed all about sharing. But it does pose a problem economically, where the investment needed to make the infrastructure to keep corps profitable often doesn't get funded by the corps making the most money with it.

A famous case-in-point is OpenSSL. For many years it was maintained by just one developer, with minimal external code review. But MANY businesses rely on it daily, and countless individuals. That was all well and good until a late-night coding error introduced a bug we now know as Heartbleed. Once the impact was assessed, far more companies are now activaly engaged in code review of OpenSSL, and the number of maintainers has now doubled to two.

People enjoying LiveCode for themselves, or freely sharing LiveCode source under GPL, are exactly why the team chose GPL. And no one questions the legitimacy of corporate use of GPL-governed works, but it sure would be helpful if they chose to support the infrastructure they rely on.

[richmond62]

it sure would be helpful if they chose to support the infrastructure they rely on

I wouldn't deny that for a moment.

However, I am sure there are quite a few people "here", like myself, whose income from
using LiveCode is minimal, but hope that, eventually, something will gain "traction" and
more money will start coming in. The fact that those people are not making anything worth
talking about from LiveCode means that they have nothing financial to pass down the line.
But most of those people are contributing in other ways.

[bogs]

Stressed is just desserts spelled backwards!

Thanks for the chuckle Richmond, I sorely needed it

[FourthWorld]

it sure would be helpful if they chose to support the infrastructure they rely on

I wouldn't deny that for a moment.

However, I am sure there are quite a few people "here", like myself, whose income from
using LiveCode is minimal, but hope that, eventually, something will gain "traction" and
more money will start coming in. The fact that those people are not making anything worth
talking about from LiveCode means that they have nothing financial to pass down the line.
But most of those people are contributing in other ways.

Absolutely. All legal use is welcome, and even better when users help in these support forums, or train others, or help with documentation and QA.

Contribution in an open source project takes many forms beyond cash and code. The LC team respects and appreciates all contributions that make LiveCode an ever more powerful, enjoyable, and learnable toolkit.

[jacque]

I was hoping this thread would just go away because I'm embarrassed about my choice of words, and as Richard reminded me, it wasn't appropriate. I was angry because false information was implied as truth and anything that hurts LC hurts me - - not just for financial reasons but simply because LC is my life and passion, and because I know much of the team personally, I get defensive when anything appears to threaten them.

Hh, "freeloader" means anyone who takes without giving anything in return,. It does not mean only money. There are emotional freeloaders, energy freeloaders, work freeloaders. You have given a lot here in effort and advice so the term doesn't apply to you. It doesn't really apply to anyone in these forums.

I confess I'm at a loss to understand how LC could survive without an income though. They have office space to maintain and salaries to pay. If they can't afford to continue, not only will my career be destroyed, but also that of all my clients who are depending on my software. The ripple effect would be disastrous for many of us, which is why I have a knee-jerk reaction when false information is posted that may harm the company and my friends there.

That's not an excuse for my post (one should never post when angry,) just an explanation.

[richmond62]

I'm at a loss to understand how LC could survive without an income though

Almost anyone would have a tough time in that respect.

There ARE companies, such as Canonical

https://www.canonical.com/

that keep their heads above water NOT by selling their Open Source Product, but
by offering ancillary services.

Quite how this works has always been a mystery to me.

However; if you want I'll buy you a $50 second-hand (err, "pre-loved") PC, here in Bulgaria, and
charge you $100 to install a version of Linux tweaked to your needs; and then send $50 to Canonical.

The reason I send Canonical $50 each time is because without their Ubuntu system (and variants)
I wouldn't get paid $100 by anyone.

HOWEVER, as LiveCode is freely downloadable, and easy to install I cannot
see anyone paying me to install it.

[Simon Knight]

Oooo! This thread was a little warm in places; and there I was expecting a discussion on how people use the use-list.

First I'm not sure why this was posted in "complete beginners" as "talking livecode" seems more logical to me. Which leads me to my first point, does the forum has to many sections, are they all needed?

Personally, I tend to favour the forum as I find it a useful repository of ideas and code snips, whereas, to date, the use list has been mostly clutter in my mail application. I don't know if it is possible to include attachments to the mail list, if not then it seems that the forum has an advantage. For me another advantage of the forum is that I can conduct a search and then create a post without changing applications whereas searching the use-list requires that I search an archive and then move back to my mail app to write a post. However, there may be better ways of achieving this.

Strangely I had never thought of using a dedicated application such as Richard's plugin or Bogs' screenshotware (that's a hint - please may I have a copy to play with ?). I think my ideal reader application would display information from multiple sources as Richard's plug-in does, display the results in a threaded view (Bogs) and allow replies to be entered and sent (neither?). I propose that this new app should be called "Ash nazg"

just my two small copper coins,

Simon

Oh, I never downloaded erotic images from alt-binaries in the late 1990's!
My dial-up was way, way to slow.

[bogs]

First I'm not sure why this was posted in "complete beginners" as "talking livecode" seems more logical to me. Which leads me to my first point, does the forum has to many sections, are they all needed?

I agree, I can only assume the OP is a bungling idiot, and I know him pretty well so I feel comfortable saying so

I don't think there are too many sections to the forum, the problem in this case was muscle memory, i.e. the section I post the most in is complete beginners because most of my questions aren't advanced to intermediate level. Come to think of it, most of my answers aren't either.

Man I really need to put more time in

Strangely I had never thought of using a dedicated application such as Richard's plugin or Bogs' screenshotware (that's a hint - please may I have a copy to play with ?). I think my ideal reader application would display information from multiple sources as Richard's plug-in does, display the results in a threaded view (Bogs) and allow replies to be entered and sent (neither?). I propose that this new app should be called "Ash nazg"

For useability in an immediate fashion, Richard's plugin is far and away better than anything I can turn out. what I was shooting is just a random general reader, specifically for the use-list, since I already have way too much mail incoming. I'll see about adding the mailing part to it, but it isn't going to be a tomorrow thing (less you want to take a shot at it ).