Ah the use list ...

Got a LiveCode personal license? Are you a beginner, hobbyist or educator that's new to LiveCode? This forum is the place to go for help getting started. Welcome!

Moderators: Klaus, FourthWorld, heatherlaine, kevinmiller

[-hh]
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 2262
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:52 pm
Location: Göttingen, DE

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by [-hh] » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:38 am

jacques wrote:In fact, LC is doing exceptionally well right now and future prospects are rosy. That one bad year is behind them.

Delays are due partly to keeping up with unexpected OS changes on several platforms, and mostly due to work on features that are paying the bills. For those who use only the free OSS version, you're last in line. In fact, that's one reason the company is doing so well. Those who need advanced or additional features are willing to pay for them.

I notice most complaints come from the freeloaders.
Who is rude in his wording, you or me?

I don't know on which statistic you rely. Probably only one: Who is shareholder and who is not.
You are and me not. But I have a Business license, like you.

What a ridiculous arguing: "Work on features that are paying the bills."
Where are these features? Can you name only one?

Moreover I do a lot for LiveCode, for nothing. And only by that I'll take the right to state:
  • In the last months there was nearly NO progress.
  • The state of the HTML5 standalone builder is after all these years still "very unfinished", not even a modifier key can be detected.
  • LC Builder is far behind all promises.
  • The browser widget is memory leaking since years, libbrowser is soon outdated.
  • None of the "Coming in 9.x" listed in Nov 2018 is realized, not even partially.
So, these are complaints. And as they are facts also a "freeloader" could name them.
Future prospects may be "rosy". The question is, for what and for whom?
shiftLock happens

jacque
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 5666
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:31 pm
Location: Minneapolis MN
Contact:

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by jacque » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:34 am

bogs wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:49 pm
jacque wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:44 pm
I notice most complaints come from the freeloaders.
Ow, that hurts :cry:
Fortunately, you aren't one of those. ;) Richmond and I have known each other a long time, I think he'll forgive me. I don't mind legitimate complaints, but unverified speculation that could hurt the company does. This sort of thing is how rumors and innuendo tend to transform into "truth" after enough repetitions, and that can hurt all of us.
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw dot com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

FourthWorld
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 8150
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:16 am

[-hh] wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:38 am
  • In the last months there was nearly NO progress.
When assessing team performance it can be helpful to observe available metrics.
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pulse/monthly
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

richmond62
Livecode Opensource Backer
Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 5061
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:17 am
Location: Bulgaria

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by richmond62 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:14 am

When assessing team performance
it helps if the team SHOUTS about its achievements in all sorts of public
places rather than burying them in obscure corners. 8)

FourthWorld
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 8150
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:35 am

richmond62 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:14 am
When assessing team performance
it helps if the team SHOUTS about its achievements in all sorts of public
places rather than burying them in obscure corners. 8)
Their progress is updated daily in near-real-time at a link posted throughout their site on the world's most popular open source software management platform.
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pulse/monthly

Not much of a secret. ;)

They also publish a weekly "This Week in LiveCode" with summaries of community activities and major team events, including bug info:
https://livecode.github.io/this-week-in-livecode/

They post the link to it each week on the use-livecode list where you're subscribed.

To provide one more place for that to be easy to find, I also include them in LiveNet.

They're also in RSS form so you can have them in any other RSS software you rely on for important news.

The team also uses a publicly-accessible bug database, very helpful for tracking progress. This search finds new bugs in progress sorted by date of last activity in the report:
https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cg ... _based_on=

For a quick summary of deliverables, the Downloads page has all version back through v6, where we see that the team has delivered 9 releases in the last 10 months. The latest PDF for any feature release summaries new features and fixes for that series, in convenient categories separating IDE changes and engine changes, all available both in the LC install itself as well as directly downloadable from this page in PDF form:
https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/

When assessing team performance it can be helpful to observe available metrics. :)
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

[-hh]
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 2262
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:52 pm
Location: Göttingen, DE

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by [-hh] » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:42 am

@Richard.
You are right. There are enough places where one could look for progress.

That's why I say with even more impact:
In the last months there was nearly no progress (with LiveCode).


The only person who does regular contributions is Panos (besides his excellent work with the bug reports).
Look especially at the pull requests ( https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pulls ).
So, one person does "the work that pays the bills?"

I'm glad if they have work they can live from. But they should tell us whenever they are on a way to abandon LiveCode (if that's the "rosy future").

I am one of the persons who sells nothing but supports LiveCode by having LC Business and HTML5 licenses. I don't support work that has nothing to do with the objects I have licenses for. Should I leave LiveCode?
shiftLock happens

FourthWorld
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 8150
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:37 am

[-hh] wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:42 am
The only person who does regular contributions is Panos (besides his excellent work with the bug reports).
Look especially at the pull requests ( https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pulls ).
So, one person does "the work that pays the bills?"
I count 7 core team members there on page 1 alone. All but Mark Waddingham have multiple submissions (and given his unique role that's not surprising).

There are also about four community members shown contributing on page 1 (thanks guys!).

11 seems a lot more than 1 to me.

Enjoy yourself, but I'm done with this thread. The older I get the less time I'm willing to spend on random complaints.

If any of you need me I'll be in other threads of this LiveCode support forum providing support for LiveCode.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

[-hh]
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 2262
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:52 pm
Location: Göttingen, DE

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by [-hh] » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:08 pm

Fourthworld wrote:Enjoy yourself, but I'm done with this thread. The older I get the less time I'm willing to spend on random complaints.
As a shareholder you better should not name a list of imperfections that last more than a year (my list above) "random complaints". This is pushing people like me away from supporting LiveCode.
shiftLock happens

richmond62
Livecode Opensource Backer
Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 5061
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:17 am
Location: Bulgaria

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by richmond62 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:41 pm

I do feel that some people who are "nearer to the fire" than either "hh" or myself
have lost a bit of perspective about how chilly it can be in some places. 8)

Or, put another way, many people when they post things in Forums elsewhere
often include a note of interest such as:

"I also wax Bill Gates' shoes for pennies."

heatherlaine
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:59 pm
Location: UK

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by heatherlaine » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:37 pm

Dear people,

This thread seems to have got a bit inflamed... I'm sure we can work it out with a bit of respect all round. Let me start by saying we value all members of this great community, whether they pay in hard coin or other forms of participation. Bogs, we love your postings. HH, we love your coding contributions. Richmond... we just love you.

In regards to progress on LiveCode and all the fab features we've lined up for 9.1 - the reason you can't see them is because they have been developed within our LCFM Native project, which is not public in github. So, the work has been done, but you can't see it yet. We are hugely looking forward to passing these new features, fixes and improvements back to the main LiveCode branch and getting 9.1 into your hands. I think you'll be surprised at the progress.

Can we shake hands all round now and get back to coding?

Best Regards,

Heather

Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd.

bogs
Posts: 4791
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:45 pm

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by bogs » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:17 pm

Wow, I sure didn't expect all this to come of this thread :?
bogs wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:49 pm
Ow, that hurts :cry:
I thought everyone knew I was kidding around, in hindsight I probably shouldn't have said anything, or thrown in a wink or twisted smile or something else.
[-hh] wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:42 am
I am one of the persons who sells nothing but supports LiveCode by having LC Business and HTML5 licenses. I don't support work that has nothing to do with the objects I have licenses for. Should I leave LiveCode?
I can't imagine anyone considering you a free loader in any stretch of the definition, or am I confusing you with someone else named -hh that has multiple gazillion post threads demonstrating uses of the language? You also managed to straighten me out on 'Filter', and that was no small feat :shock: Besides that, your one of my idols around here, if you left I'd have to go back to my last idol who was nowhere near as good looking or fun to talk to,
Image
heatherlaine wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:37 pm
Dear people,
This thread seems to have got a bit inflamed... I'm sure we can work it out with a bit of respect all round.
I love that sentiment :wink:
Can we shake hands all round now and get back to coding?
Best Regards,
Heather
I'm shaking mine all around, is it working? :twisted: :twisted:
Image

FourthWorld
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 8150
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:13 pm

[-hh] wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:08 pm
Fourthworld wrote:Enjoy yourself, but I'm done with this thread. The older I get the less time I'm willing to spend on random complaints.
As a shareholder you better should not name a list of imperfections that last more than a year (my list above) "random complaints".
This reply provides another example of the sort of presumption I'm spending less time with these days: I'm not a shareholder.

Like all of us from time to time, you see things one way, you'd like them to be another, and you call out the difference. In that regard you and I are like most folks.

But what you have are questions. You could ask things like, "Why am I not seeing the sort of progress I might expect on X?" or "Are you a shareholder?"

Asking questions is an acknowledgement that there may be things in the universe we don't already know. A healthy habit; the universe is vast.

But here, rather than ask questions to obtain useful information, apparently you decided the answer on your own, and then felt comfortable extrapolating further on the presumption.

Presumption is like buggy code, a common human weakness. I'm not immune to it myself.

But here your extrapolation went so far as to suggest that my friends are lying to me, that what I see with my own eyes doesn't exist, and things I know firsthand like whether I'm a shareholder are the opposite of what they are.

When encountering such confidence based on presumption, I feel equally confident replying with what I know directly.

Going forward, when what you have is a question please consider posting a question. Many conversations, from forums to dinner tables, benefit from that.
This is pushing people like me away from supporting LiveCode.
I do not control you, nor you me. Each of us is responsible for our own decisions. My reply to your complaint was not the origin of that complaint. Likewise, if I find myself wanting to spend my time differently, it would be wrong of me to blame you for that; it's both easier and more responsible for me to just go do what I prefer doing.

There are a great many members in this forum, and most of my time here in this LiveCode support forum is spent offering support for LiveCode.

I value much of what you do here, and generally enjoy your personality. But I don't understand the last few posts here, and simply choose not to spend much of my life with things like that.

Just as I choose how I spend my own days, your choices are also your own. Make them in peace, enjoy their fruits.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

FourthWorld
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 8150
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:15 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:41 pm
I do feel that some people who are "nearer to the fire" than either "hh" or myself
have lost a bit of perspective about how chilly it can be in some places. 8)
Why choose to sit in the cold? There's plenty of room by the fire.

If there's any information that would help you better understand LiveCode or the process by which it's made, asking questions about that will yield helpful replies.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

[-hh]
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 2262
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:52 pm
Location: Göttingen, DE

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by [-hh] » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:33 pm

Heather wrote:In regards to progress on LiveCode and all the fab features we've lined up for 9.1 ...
So, the LC users have financed the development of LCFM and they'll get back "fab features"!?

Please you and all shareholders, stop that ridiculous "let's play promising x-mas gifts".
We are not idiots:
What are these features? Fabulous announcements only? We have seen a lot of them in the last year.

I don't need and don't want LCFM, Filemaker is really not an excellent product.
Others may like it and it's fine that LiveCode has now good returns from LCFM.
So there is (hopefully) a "rosy future" for LiveCode-the company.

But a lot of us pay licenses NOT for developing LCFM.
So what about the "rosy future" of LiveCode-the product?

I'm deeply disappointed, think about leaving LiveCode -- others may too.
shiftLock happens

FourthWorld
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 8150
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Ah the use list ...

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:45 pm

[-hh] wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:33 pm
But a lot of us pay licenses NOT for developing LCFM.
So what about the "rosy future" of LiveCode-the product?
Let's try this as a question: "How does LCFM benefit users of other editions of the LiveCode engine?"

A reasonable answer can be derived from what we see with all other editions. For example, we can see that enhancements to arrays or chunk expressions benefit the Server edition, even though far more people use the desktop and mobile engines.

LCFM is the LiveCode engine in a FileMaker add-on wrapper. Any work on the engine not specific to the FM wrapper becomes part of the LC code base rolling out to other editions.

While there are many databases and even more opinions about them, there is a healthy overlap in audience between LC and FM which my FM consultant friends tell me looks quite promising.

This leads us to a follow-up question: "What is the benefit of making these engine changes in the LCFM edition first and rolling them out to the main branch later, rather than vice versa?"

That's a question I don't have the answer to. But I'll bet if I ask that question as a question, and ask it of the people more likely to know than other forum members learning LiveCode, I'm likely to find an answer.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

Post Reply

Return to “Getting Started with LiveCode - Complete Beginners”