LiveCode vs. Web Dev Tools

[steven.pribilinskiyBUSI3SL]

Classic example of a troll, if no one feeds it, it should slink away.

if everything you can say about some person's research and sharing opinions that he's a troll, then you are some offensive forum freak
I am no professional, the "crazy formatting" of the head post is related to my sympathy to cloud tags

why are you still here?

I thought someone who have experience in both paid and free web technologies convince me to abandon free technologies and start using LiveCode, will point to some comparisons of both technologies, explain the good and bad, not just some marketing bubble

Seems to me that you are wasting our time and yours, so good luck with the "other" stuff.

If my posts wasn't shake smb's convictions, faith in LiveCode, then imho his time wasn't wasted


Thanks Richard for understanding my point of view and putting some honor to my rants
You are probably one of the most polite in the LiveCode community, a great consultant who can put hesitating people to the right direction. Thanks!

again, just my opinions
screenshots on the TideSDK home page are from Mac, Windows and Linux

obviously cloud versions of apps like Excel are server-side and probably can be written in any language, so it was a non-sense example from my side, I'm in a research process
the add-on apps for MS Office 2013 should be written in JS-HTML-CSS, Microsoft has created a new Office service integration API (code-named Agave) based on HTML5 and JavaScript.

I know about stackoverflow, it is a great resource to find answers, resolve issues when using free web techs, there are 34k js followers

currently I have decided to go with the freely available tools and later, maybe, will try again LiveCode for another 30 days just for fun, just because I like the nice Hypercard syntax and because I know that here are peoples like Richard and that even such a provocative topics are not banned here

I've found a great PDF Cross-Platform Developer Tools 2012 Report which is aimed on the topic
it consist from an Analysis of 15 major cross-platform tool vendors, with in-depth profiles, a "researcher's wealth"
I've found that better to use Sencha, instead of PhoneGap to build native apps, here's a sneak peak

[jacque]

I just want to reiterate what Richard said -- you do not need to purchase anything outside of the LiveCode product to do virtually everything you need to do. There are some rare edge cases where you might need an external, and if you know how to create those then you don't need to buy those either, but they are available for the rest of us who don't write in C-languages.

All the things you listed -- MobGUI, Animation Engine, etc. -- are valuable products that can speed up our work flow, but they were all written in LiveCode themselves. They are just libraries that provide a useful shortcut, but they aren't requirements.

[steven.pribilinskiyBUSI3SL]

Amazing!
LiveCode goes Open Source!

It was a necessary step to move forward, otherwise most beginners would just use HAML, Slim, SASS, CoffeeScript, with evolving Frameworks like AngularJS and other Free Open-source web tools and just forgot LiveCode

It's sad though that educational stuff, extensions like MobGUI, Animation Engine, will remain paid after this step.

Look at CodeCademy, Code Avengers, LearnStreet, etc. - how easy it's to learn coding with help of this sites.
I can't say this for LiveCode with it's few screencasts and a bunch of read-through tutorials.

But even if source code will be free, users should still pay license fees. Strange, huh?

With your support we will deliver the open source version of LiveCode and bring coding to everyone.

Huh? "Bring coding to everyone"?
They want that some nerds will extend the language, and then RunRev will get the money for their work. Unfair. I'll stay with the Web.
Or maybe I misunderstand the whole concept? It will be free for users In 2014?

[FourthWorld]

It was a necessary step to move forward, otherwise most beginners would just use HAML, Slim, SASS, CoffeeScript, with evolving Frameworks like AngularJS and other Free Open-source web tools and just forgot LiveCode

It's sad though that educational stuff, extensions like MobGUI, Animation Engine, will remain paid after this step.

RunRev does not control what third--party devs do. Like any dual-licensed FOSS project, there will be some developers who will support both of the parent-projects' licenses, some only one.

But since you have enough familiarity with FOSS projects to have known this, and since thus far you've never asked a single specific question about using LiveCode, instead using this forum to evangelize your other tool preference, would you kindly consider this a modest request to use this LiveCode support forum for LiveCode support, and enjoy your evangelism of other tools in their own respective forums?

The regulars here do not bombard your favorite forums with LiveCode evangelism. Please show similar respect and professionalism.

But even if source code will be free, users should still pay license fees. Strange, huh?

That's exactly the sort of comment I'm referring to. Either you chose not to read the notice before commenting on it, or you did and chose to misrepresent things here wilfully. If you think this sort of thing will help evangelize the tools you use this forum to promote, you may want to reconsider the sort of community it suggests those tools create.

For the benefit of others who may stumble across this thread, Steven's suggestion there has no actual bearing on the LiveCode project:

As is clearly spelled out in their materials promoting this FOSS initiative, the plan is to move the project forward under dual licensing, much as MySQL and many other popular dev tools use. Only those who wish to distribute their work under their own proprietary license will need to pay for a proprietary license from RunRev (at rates pretty much the same as they've been for years). But those who want to distribute their work under the GPL licence can of course use the GPL-licensed version of LiveCode at no cost.

[steven.pribilinskiyBUSI3SL]

Evanglism? Evangelize?
I'm a newb who tries to research what's available for a developer without a penny in the pocket
it was just that e-mail about the Kickstarter project and I just wanted to discuss
sorry for disturbing you
next time will unsubscribe from runrev newsletter
btw I don't have either favorite forum

[jacque]

I'm sure you probably understand the concept. If you are content to use the free edition then you don't need to purchase anything. The only restriction is if you want to release closed-source commercial apps. In that case you must purchase a license. That doesn't seem too hard to understand. Many other products use the same open source licensing.

RunRev will make money from commercial developers. Everyone else can use the product free.

[steven.pribilinskiyBUSI3SL]

Thanks for clarifying, I was a bit confused with this Open-source thingy because of previous 499$ spammy offering e-mails and thought that runrev just trying to run for the money in unhonest way.
I would like to apologize

[jacque]

Thanks for the apology. I think if you start using the product you will immediately see the advantages. The open source project has the potential to expand the user base far beyond its current numbers and allow everyone to see how rewarding and easy development is in LiveCode. Everyone will benefit; users get a free development platform and RR gets increased revenues from a larger pool of commercial developers.

[steven.pribilinskiyBUSI3SL]

I would like to, but the Trial Period is ended and the IDE is not accessible anymore.
Probably a download link will appear after the Kickstarted campaign

[amsterfrank]

I just had to say a few words as well, now that I'm discovering and struggling with Livecode Community in the last few days.

First of all thanks to the guy that lead me to the PDF of Vision Mobile, it sure is a very nice read and overview !
Also, the guy mentioning the spammy emails from runrev is right.. this annoyed me for a long time as well.
And the guy who started this thread is not your common troll, he actually makes some valid point imho.

Many moons ago I started out in Basic on C64 and Amiga. Years later I got to know Hypercard through a multimedia-academy where I graduated with an MA.There I also met Macintosh and Macromedia Director and I programmed Lingo for many years. But then of course Adobe killed it. Well.. there is Director12 and you can do iOS-apps with it, but that sucks because it's a kind of shockwave-player for iOS, it's expensive to publish, and the whole Director community left years ago. I have been doing work on the internet since then, in HTML/CSS/Javascript and Php ( CMS-ses/backends) and some tryouts with Haxe, Flash, OpenLaszlo etc etc etc.

So, being fairly known to language-like code, I have been following Runrev for quite some time. This last week I started out with some testings with LC6 Community and after a week I'm anywhere but happy. I want to focus on mobile development. I do believe in the potention of LC but I just saw to much lessons and examples which really confused me. Also the community isn't too active to say the least. I read forum-questions which handle the same topic over and over again, so apperantly there are no real satisfying answers? I am looking for methods to properly do orientation and do resizing to different devices, and be able to show ads and do in-app purchases, have native UI elements at my disposal, find ways to script behaviors that handle several devices. That turned out not to be so easy (for me) and I still haven't found what I'm looking for.

For me, I guess I have to wait until the Resolution Indepent part gets introduced. And things like Inneractive-ads or iAds and in-app purchases actually work and have some people fiddling with it. Runrev has been here for more years than other tools, but for me it just didn't seem to make enough progress. I will keep looking into it, but I will start looking into other devtools as well. I will focus on Phonegap and also (especially) Titanium. For Titanium I saw in just 15 minutes of looking around in the developers-corner all the stuff I looked for here and mainly lead to confusion (when it comes to mobile development). Even with user-comments like "works like a breeze" when it comes to issues like in-app-purchase and ads, where I can hardly find anything within Livecode. That amazed me. I made me wonder why. I also wonder if the concept of stacks and cards is what I need for mobile development. I really miss the stage concept in Director, but those days are over. Well.. there's is the canvas in html5

I have a feeling I'm better of with Titanium or Phonegap for now, and in a year or two I turn back to Livecode. But honestly that's what I also thought 3 years ago when I joined the forum here (although back then I just read stuff and didn't code myself). I guess everybody makes his own choices in life.

Cheers.

[FourthWorld]

I read forum-questions which handle the same topic over and over again, so apperantly there are no real satisfying answers?

We see that in pretty much every discussion-oriented forums and email lists, as is the nature of those beasts.

With your extensive experience, you've no doubt seen StackExchange emerge as an alternative that's more suitable for creating an archive in a strictly Q&A format.

You no longer use LiveCode so this link is more for the many newcomers I see here each week who may not have come across StackExchange - and they cover most languages there, so no doubt you'll find what you're looking for there:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/livecode

There are a hundreds of great languages and tools in the world; we'd miss out on a lot of opportunities to learn new things if we only used one. Enjoy the ones you're using now, and feel free to post here again whenever you feel LC may be a good fit for your needs.

[steven.pribilinskiyBUSI3SL]

Thanks amsterfrank for the decision to write an update on LC progress to this thread instead of starting a new one, as I'm subscribed to this topic and had a chance to read your post

Nevertheless, my decision was to extend my career as a programmer with JavaScript, HTML5 Canvas,jQuery UI, node-js, Yeoman with all the standard tools and libraries, Meteor and some other webdevtools.
I have a wealth of options, just look at the list of available HTML5 based game engines and frameworks.

Great news that LiveCode is among StackOverflow tags, yet nothing convinces me to install LiveCode again (at least for now)