Where are the newbies?

Got a LiveCode personal license? Are you a beginner, hobbyist or educator that's new to LiveCode? This forum is the place to go for help getting started. Welcome!

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FourthWorld
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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by FourthWorld » Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:11 pm

stam wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:21 pm
I have recently been inundated by Facebook posts for XOJO showing up on my feed, which are professionally attractive and enticing. Great advertising that almost had be heading to their download area. When the last time this happened to me with LC? Well... never.
You may have hit on a key element there.

Forum engagement is a metric at the bottom of the funnel.

Understanding the throughput that leads to that starts with what happens at the very top of the funnel.
Richard Gaskin
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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by dunbarx » Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:38 pm

Here is an out-of-the-box item I see, perfectly suited to those who find LC enjoyable.

There are 850,000 views of this thread. :wink:

Craig

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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by NoN' » Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:25 am

stam wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:21 pm
Very interesting, thank you for sharing NoN.
Stam, thank you for your comment.
What your statistics suggest nicely is that the decline in forum activity started much earlier than dropping FOSS can account for.
Yes, this came as a real surprise to me, although I had rather expected the opposite.
I'm certainly not going to extrapolate Livecode's situation from these few figures, but I must admit that it has made me more indulgent towards some of its recent decisions.

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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:07 am

NoN' wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:25 am
I'm certainly not going to extrapolate Livecode's situation from these few figures...
Good call. The charts reinforce what we experienced on the ground: the decline plateaued, until FOSS was dropped.

Forums are bottom-of-the-funnel. To see drivers look at the top of the funnel.
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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by NoN' » Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:07 am

FourthWorld wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:07 am
Forums are bottom-of-the-funnel. To see drivers look at the top of the funnel.
No doubt, but as a lambda user we only have access to the bottom of the funnel.
Furthermore, if I continue your metaphor, what comes out of the funnel is, in theory, exactly what goes in. The size of the spout only determines the speed at which the contents will flow out.

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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by mrcoollion » Wed Apr 03, 2024 3:01 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2023 2:48 am
No Free version of LiveCode has effectively killed all that off.
I also agree that not having a free (limited) version was not a wise thing to do.
I also started with LC with the free version to see if it filled my requirements.
I hope that LC sees why a free limited in functionality version with which you can test deploy to all platforms should be available.
We need new developers to start using LC to ensure its survival.

Regards,

MrCoolLIon (Paul)

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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by Lance » Wed Apr 03, 2024 3:19 pm

Hello, Just thought I would add a comment. I have not done many posts as most of the time I either do not have the answer or the core group has jumped on responses and it appears solved. I do however read my digest email every morning. I enjoy seeing what others are working on and I have gained knowledge from all of you that has really helped.

So not sure if there are more passive participants like myself, but I appreciate the time and effort many of you put into this.

Thanks
Lance

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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:33 pm

NoN' wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:07 am
FourthWorld wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:07 am
Forums are bottom-of-the-funnel. To see drivers look at the top of the funnel.
No doubt, but as a lambda user we only have access to the bottom of the funnel.
Furthermore, if I continue your metaphor, what comes out of the funnel is, in theory, exactly what goes in. The size of the spout only determines the speed at which the contents will flow out.
The funnel I'm referring to is the classic sales conversion model, where above the funnel is all potential prospects, and at the bottom are loyal customers. In between are various stages of contact, each with a conversion rate.

Unlike a real funnel, the sales funnel is porous; only a slender minority of people engaged at one level will pass through to the next.

The sum of these conversions is the difference between the total addressable market size and the number of renewing subscribers.

IMG_COM_202404030758568010.jpg
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business ... -template/

In an ideal world, the funnel would work as you describe, where the volume in is the volume out.

But as a sales model, the classic funnel image reminds us that the audience gets smaller as they move from initial awareness of the offering to evaluating the product for their needs, comparing it to competing offerings, assessing hard cost of license price and soft cost of learning time, determining ROI for their software development ambitions, etc.

You and I, as long-time xTalk fans, may find our journey through the funnel an easy one leading to a quick sale.

But the software development world is vast, with a wide range of needs. Most who become aware of any given tool will not become customers.

The model offers two awarenesses:

1. Given conversion rates, sales is a numbers game, where marketing widens the top of the funnel.

2. While awareness is generally useful, conversion pays the bills. So it's not enough to just market broadly. A vendor will want to target prospects most likely to convert.

With LiveCode, the strongest selling point is native app deployment to all desktops, with mobile support almost as good to round out coverage.

This plays well within the competitive landscape, because tho there's less demand for native deployment than for web development, there's almost no competition at all for tools that can cover all three desktop platforms and both mobile platforms.

Native deployment is LiveCode's strength, and its breadth in that space leaves most competition in the dust. It has a few weaknesses to address, esp with mobile (scrolling fields, clipboard, etc), but still a strong competitor for mobile. Moreover, it's almost alone in the desktop space, where users continue to spend about 45% of their computing device time.

Messaging focused on the asset's greatest strengths are most likely to become conversions.
Richard Gaskin
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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by dunbarx » Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:11 pm

Native deployment is LiveCode's strength, and its breadth in that space leaves most competition in the dust. It has a few weaknesses to address, esp with mobile (scrolling fields, clipboard, etc), but still a strong competitor for mobile. Moreover, it's almost alone in the desktop space, where users continue to spend about 45% of their computing device time.
Encouraging description. Do we believe the Scotland aggressively works this?

Craig

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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by NoN' » Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:14 pm

FourthWorld wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:33 pm
The funnel I'm referring to is the classic sales conversion model, where above the funnel is all potential prospects, and at the bottom are loyal customers. In between are various stages of contact, each with a conversion rate.
Richard,
Thank you very much for these precisions and for this very interesting information on the sales funnel.
Indeed, this was not at all the type of funnel I had in mind (but perhaps on the head :wink: ).

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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:37 pm

dunbarx wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:11 pm
Native deployment is LiveCode's strength, and its breadth in that space leaves most competition in the dust. It has a few weaknesses to address, esp with mobile (scrolling fields, clipboard, etc), but still a strong competitor for mobile. Moreover, it's almost alone in the desktop space, where users continue to spend about 45% of their computing device time.
Encouraging description. Do we believe the Scotland aggressively works this?
Marketing is visibility. What do you see?
Richard Gaskin
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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by dunbarx » Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:36 pm

Richard.
What do you see?
I see, or rather feel, that we are a lonely group. This means to me that people are idiots, a treasure to be had for the taking that they simply do not see. Or worse, that either from prejudice against what LC is, or for want of investigation, they do not give it a fair trial.

Craig

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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by richmond62 » Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:55 pm

people are idiots, a treasure to be had for the taking that they simply do not see
1. That is plain insulting and totally misanthropic, and not very helpful.

I drive a Toshiba Auris, I use MacOS and Xubuntu Linux as my operating systems of choice:

does the fact that I do not use Windows, and do not drive a Mercedes make me an idiot?

No!

and the fact that someone else chooses to use Windows, and drives a Mercedes does not also make them an idiot.

2. "a treasure to be had for the taking" is not really true, as it is a 'treasure' for the paying.

And, as has been pointed out several times, a one week trial is insufficient to get at the treasure in anything but an extremely superficial way.
we are a lonely group
Well, you, at least may become increasingly lonely if you persist in calling people who don't choose to use LiveCode idiots.

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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by stam » Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:13 pm

dunbarx wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:36 pm
Richard.
What do you see?
I see, or rather feel, that we are a lonely group. This means to me that people are idiots, a treasure to be had for the taking that they simply do not see. Or worse, that either from prejudice against what LC is, or for want of investigation, they do not give it a fair trial.

Craig
You're not wrong - but this is the domain of marketing.
I'm gonna guess that at least 75% of developers in general have never even heard of LiveCode, RunRev or even HyperCard.

Those who do probably have a malformed opinion - in part because even though very capable and up to the task, the IDE does look about 25 years old (and in my eyes, the Windows is much worse-looking that the MacOS version, but not as bad as the Linux version...). And in part because the material out there just doesn't highlight what LC can do.

I remember looking into LC many years before it took it up and was singularly unimpressed. Instead of eating up the blurb on the website, I searched for examples of apps build with LiveCode and
a) I could find no showcase apps that really push what LC can do, and
b) looking at liveCodeShare failed to excite me in the least

Contrast this with Qt - for example: https://www.qt.io/industry/qt-in-medical, and see what I mean.
Qt is more expensive but really in the same order of magnitude as LiveCode now (I mean if you buy all features). Because they are obviously profitable, the also have a strong FOSS licence.
But look at that showcase, look at LC's website and tell me which one looks much more impressive...

At this price point, LC should be aiming to pull in big hitters with advertising/promotion.
If they want smaller independent devs/hobbyists, the current price point will put them off and no amount of advertising will help that...

Catch22?

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Re: Where are the newbies?

Post by dunbarx » Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:34 pm

Richmond.

Really??

First off, I never mentioned Windows. Second, I was hardly actually angry or upset; I am startled you took such umbrage Don't become curmudgeonly.

Craig

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