The day after (Help LiveCode to go back to school!)

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Mariasole
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The day after (Help LiveCode to go back to school!)

Post by Mariasole » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:02 pm

Hi everyone!
Some of you will remember me, I was a bit absent, for many reasons and then for the Covid I was a bit firm with my great LC passion! :D

However, in these years of Lockdown I have taught many children in my neighborhood the basics of the code and LC, even with the webcam. This is a great pride! :D

Now, after about a year I returned to the site of LC and the feeling has been a trimmer ... :shock: I feel like you leave an atomic bunker! :?

I looked forward to understanding on the forum and do targeted searches, but I didn't understand much. I'm completely disoriented! (And if you want to know, I go up a bit of bitterness because I felt part of a community that is not there now, I think more). I say it without controversy ... but it seems to me that everything has changed! Philosophy has changed, but I ask ..... Will the code change too? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

I have read that since the "community" version is as if it weren't "never existed" even the codes will no longer work (and how? LC will become more difficult? In addition on the download page with horror, really, with great astonishment, no longer exist "Community" versions! :cry: :cry: :cry:

Attention, all this is not out of theme, I write in this section because I continue to remain an absolute beginner and I will ask some things that, sine qua non, will allow you to run the code I wrote in these years! If anyone can answer me I would really be grateful ...

1. My neighborhood kids write code with the old version of LC. Will their work be able to run in the paid versions in the future?

2. Is all the "free" and "open source" code that sits here in the forum compatible with the "new" versions?

3. We had bought with a neighborhood fundraiser a hosting plan that had LC in the package, just to let the kids experiment. Will that be paid too? Will the hosting tell us: it's over guys, your checkers game app is dead? Will your talking Santa and singing giraffe be shut down?

4. There is no more community version. Ok. If we then buy a standard plan, I ask the LC leaders, can we name it after the neighborhood (our neighborhood name) so that we can (uninstall it from time to time) take turns using it on kids' computers?

5. The school principal had bought the Indy version. I've sent her a message now with the news (!) and she told me that she can't find the Indy plan anymore, it's like it disappeared on the plans, and she doesn't understand if it has lost its advantages, if the one she bought at the time still exists and, above all, she can't find a comparison table with the new plans! Can you give her some help?



Thanks for your support, sorry but I'm sad for my boys and the fact that now that I wanted to have it used at the child school we won't be able to afford it anymore.... But no controversy, really. The world is already so bad that I don't pay attention to it anymore.

With the few securities we had, LC Community was the certainty that the spirit of the old days, the one for which computers served for the community, to learn and also to dream, was still on.

I can't afford 10 euros a month for LC. I can afford 100 euros one-off, but another monthly bill no. Or the Internet line or LC :oops: . However, we can make a fundraising to buy a working license that the 14 neighborhood children can use in turn. This yes. :roll:


:arrow: Thank you all, especially to all the people who have always helped me in this community, really a hug to all guys, you are in my heart! Love...





Mariasole
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Last edited by Mariasole on Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The day after

Post by heatherlaine » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:24 pm

Dear Mariasole,

It's great to hear all the good work you have done with LiveCode. Please contact support to work out a way forward for you that will ensure none of that work is lost and the licensing is affordable going forward.

Our support address: support@livecode.com

Best Regards,

Heather

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Re: The day after

Post by stam » Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:42 pm

Hi Mariasole,

I'm sure Heather and the team will get you to an affordable solution.

Regarding your other questions:
Yes all code will work as is. The product hasn't changed really at this point, although version 10 looks like it'll offer more.

Indy will keep working as long as supported by the OS (and that includes standalone apps created with this), and LC have said they'll continue to honour existing licences (i.e. if you were due for subscription renewal in say 6 months, you should be able to update to current version until then - but you won't be able to renew further as i understand it).
So far, there is no real difference between Indy and the current offering, it's pretty much exactly the same outside of licensing changes.
The main difference between Indy with the new licence is the cost: if you get all features that Indy offered (3 desktop OS's, 2 mobile platforms + server) you'll end up paying about 3 times as much for the 'standard plan' - obviously more if you include 'pro' features.

Having said that, i believe the existing community installations will continue to work as well, as long as supported by the underlying OS - this means anything you were running previously will continue to do so for the foreseeable. Someone has hosted the installers for Community versions, you can download again if needed.

If cost is a show-stopper, why not just continue to use the community version, at least for now?

Hope that helps,
Stam

--------------
EDIT: i see the Community installers are still being hosted by the mothership here: https://community.livecode.com/
This includes all versions up to and including 9.6.3
Last edited by stam on Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The day after

Post by FourthWorld » Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:41 pm

Good to see you back here, Mariasole.
Richard Gaskin
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Mariasole
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Re: The day after

Post by Mariasole » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:54 am

Thank you Richard!!! It's good to see you again...so long!

Thanks to you too, Stam, for trying to make me understand some things that, however, I don't quite understand... since, when there's a change like that in company policy, there should always be certainties, not "fuzzy logic" certainties (a little black, a little white) , even if it's a tech company!

And of course thanks to you Heather, you're very kind for taking my story to heart, which is admittedly a bit heartbreaking. I also thank you for the compliments. But I am only doing my small part for a sweeter world :) .

However, I didn't want to stir up emotion, nor did I want to wring advantageous conditions from you :oops: .
Like me there are thousands of Mariasole in the world, orphaned of their teaching tool (and personal intellectual growth, of course), which was LiveCode Community.

In fact, I certainly cared about the kids in my neighborhood, my LC students (at least I can teach the kids LC!, after all the hours I spent on it!)... I cared, however, about all the young students in the world!

Because LC is something worldwide, even if maybe LiveCode Ltd itself doesn't realize it. It is a phenomenon that has entered people's lives.


So I would like to make an appeal to the new course of LiveCode Ltd.


I imagine that for Kevin Miller, first, the choice to abandon a community and the open source version was something very difficult and even embarrassing :cry: . This discomfort has been noticed in the quality of communication that, I must say, has not been up to the lucidity shown when looking for money on Kikstarter. :?

I read that even in this forum an entire thread has been deleted, I imagine that many people, instead of feeling deeply disappointed and bitter like me :( , have instead become angry :twisted: !

I think this reaction is due to the fact that we love you Kevin, we really love all of you at LiveCode Ltd, 8) all the collaborators, engineers, participants, because we feel LC is ours too, just like the old Apple users felt the company as their own. There is attachment, there is affection, that's why for example I feel sad and others feel betrayed.

But I don't agree with "betrayal". In my positive view of people and life, it doesn't mean that Kevin Miller, even with a closed system and his new "four plans", can't still do something free and nice, moreover very beneficial for those who might become customers in the near future. The board of directors would totally agree with me. :D

So I turn to you, dear Kevin, as a brother and a friend,
I want to write to you, on behalf of myself and other teachers I know personally who teach at LC school, and who have been following your adventure for decades.

Willing or unwilling dear Kevin you have to recognize at least three things (plus one):

(a) after a good 8 years of the "free" version of LC you have created an LC generation of students and teachers!

(b) thousands of teachers and schools all over the world use LC to bring kids that "were born artists and not engineers" (to quote Steve Jobs) in the world of computers and internet where they would have never moved a step as programmers. Thanks to LC they are actors, not passive spectators. They program robots, they didn't become robots. :!:

(c)
without free Hypercard on your Mac, without anyone having made it available to you as a kid you would not be what you are (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8RD4SVOyVs). I'm looking at some possible Kevin Miller(s) who are dreaming with your code, can I change their destiny? :( Can you change their destiny? :o Are you up for a bad trip version of "Back to the Future"? 8)

(d) without the Community Edition, I wouldn't be writing to you and I wouldn't be able to teach the neighborhood kids, terrified of the Covid "new normal", that computers aren't just something to check QR codes and track our lives, they're for so much more, first and foremost to collaborate and love each other

You need to know Kevin that the vast majority of these teachers and kids and schools (here, for example, since there is no funding, at school they are forced to bring their own toilet paper and soap from home, no joke :oops: :cry: ), just don't have the money to pay for the "student plan", and so they risk seeing their computer training cancelled (since computer training came about because there was a program, called LiveCode Community Edition that even the old school director understood - and understood the strategic aspect of it for the students -).

Now, you can't say, hey, that's not my problem! :shock: No, it's your problem, you're the one who created all this joy, :D these expectations, these little Kevin(s) who are only wrong for having believed in Community!

Remember "Six Reasons Why Computer Science Education is Failing Students?" [https://bit.ly/3FQaJoF] Well with LC Community you changed things. Now you want to throw it all away? Or more specifically, do you want to throw away the majority of kids that in this world crisis have probably lost a big piece of their future?

For all this I would like to propose, in the fullness of your new strategy, to launch a LiveCode Miller plan.

That is a very simple and basic version of LC, with the commands (that you, Kevin, consider didactically appropriate, perhaps asking advice from teachers around the world) that are essential to learn programming with LiveCode.

A version with which, for free, teachers and students can play and learn at school and at home without having to choose between paying for a internet subscription or a soap/toilet paper dose.

A version with which they can be grateful to you and can, once they get a little richer, have found a job opportunity because of the experience you provided them for free (i.e. you invested in them). So then they will happily and gratefully pay you the "standard plan". Remember the happiness of your first paycheck?

I repeat, the LiveCode Miller plan will only be made of the didactically relevant "essential parts" of LC just to understand the language, to do simple (but didactically outstanding) things.

It only works if users are registered,
and that way, if they want to switch to the "student plan" they might even get a small discount or something for free.

No open source, no full program, just a coconut instead of a coconut tree :wink: . But to make a tree you need a seed. The seed of culture and teaching. :D

That's what I feel from my heart to say to you Kevin, and to all of you LC bosses and investors.

It's true that for now one can adjust with LC Community, but I assure you that no teacher will embark on an installation of a program they can't even find officially on the manufacturer's site anymore. It's obvious. :(

Kevin, think about it.
You could also create a Miller Foundation :idea: and seek donations, including institutional donations. It's easy to fund something like this. 8)

Why lose all these teachers and students who don't have money or who only have the money to buy one license per class?


Please still give us the chance to teach and learn this wonderful heir language of an era that must not die out!

You know I could have easily written to Heather and taken my free licenses for my neighborhood kids :roll: . But inside me, as I'm sure inside you, still lives a child who does things because they are right and beautiful.

We don't want favors or handouts, we just want to help you Kevin, we are part of your family too. :)
Listen to this humble advice from a humble county teacher.

Thanks for your patience guys
Love to all


(='.'=)
Mariasole
"I'm back" - The Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 Series 800 Terminator

richmond62
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Re: The day after

Post by richmond62 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:19 pm

That certainly gets a socking great thumbs up from me.

And at the risk of being boring I will repeat:

RevMedia

RevMedia (possibly with the addition of the Unicode capabilities and the improved image handling that came with LC 7)
is quite sufficient for teaching programming.

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Re: The day after

Post by RogGuay » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:03 pm

Thank you Mariasole for this wonderful, compelling heartfelt plea.

Roger

Mariasole
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Re: The day after

Post by Mariasole » Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:42 am

Thanks Roger! I hope this plea will do some good and reach Kevin Miller, and his staff, but for now, it seems to be unworthy of even a courteous response. :oops:

But we are not giving up! Thank you Roger and Richmond for powering this appeal! :D

Speaking of Richmond, I've been doing some research on RevMedia.
I agree, I'm thinking of something like that too ("updated" of course), though the ability to create executables could be provided, with a splash screen warning like "this app was created by Jane Doe only for educational purposes, if you want to create a real app with LC go to livecode.com".

Meanwhile, as I thought, two schools in my area have removed the LiveCode programming course: one course has been completely suppressed, the other will use Scratch!!!! :shock: :? :oops: :cry: :evil: :twisted: :!:



:!: Live Code for live school :!:

(='.'=)
Mariasole
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richmond62
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Re: The day after

Post by richmond62 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:00 pm

The Bulgarian government in its infinite wisdom has decided that from September 10-12 year olds
will learn Python.

Today I had a discussion with some 14-15 year olds who are learning programming at the Mathematical High School
here in Plovdiv, Bulgaria and they confirmed my suspicions that 10-12 year olds would face a very steep learning curve
with Python.

I showed them a few "quick-n-dirty" things with LiveCode (they had not seen LiveCode before) and told me that a program in Python to
move an object round a window as in:

Code: Select all

on mouseUp
move btn "X" to the mouseLoc
end mouseUp
would take a few hours to make, and that that presupposed 10 - 15 hours of class time first.

They also admired the WYSIWYG "instant joy" aspect of LiveCode.

Quite apart from what Piaget had to say about 10-12 old brains!
-
Piaget-stages-of-cognitive-development-5a95c43aa9d4f900370bf112.png
-
Scratch is going in the opposite direction

The problem is that governments tend to listen to Professors at Universities and Business interests: very rarely taking
soundings as to children's capacities and needs.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/piaget.html
Last edited by richmond62 on Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

richmond62
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Re: The day after

Post by richmond62 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:03 pm

Re the RevMedia model:

None of the children who attend my summer courses ever show an urge to run off standalones,
being entirely happy to show off their programming on their laptops and/or desktops via the IDE;
so, as one girl said, "I can also show my friends the code inside things."

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Re: The day after

Post by Newbie4 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:29 pm

Standalones were not important to most of the students in my classes. A few were interested in doing apps for their cell phones but most of them just wanted to learn to program.

Sadly, our school dropped all the LiveCode programming classes (Six classes a day) and only support Python and JAVA. It seems that LiveCode is slowly losing all the gains they have made to date.

Let us hope that the decision makers at LiveCode read Mariasole's plea and plan a better strategy for the educational market. The students of today will be the programmers, consumers and decision makers of tomorrow. It is easier to get their buy-in on LiveCode as a development language now, then later.

Maybe their goal is to be a niche market language supported only by their backers and close knit community.
Cyril Pruszko
https://sites.google.com/a/pgcps.org/livecode/
https://sites.google.com/a/setonhs.org/app-and-game-workshop/home
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Re: The day after

Post by Mariasole » Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:25 pm

Dear Richmond,
thank you for the information you brought to this thread. You rightly quote Piaget and the result of "instant joy" :D that a kid brings when he programs in LiveCode. I come from a Montessori teaching tradition, and I can tell you that if I didn't have LiveCode on my hands, I would never be able to teach some programming to street kids who have very low attention spans. (A little note: I showed my boys your Devawriter Pro...they went crazy!They loved it, despite not understanding any of the language, of course! But it served as great inspiration! Grazie! :D 8) )

Cyril, whom I thank, confirmed the trend that it is quick to "dismantle" LiveCode from schools if there is no new initiative from LiveCode Ltd. On that note, those in this forum who can promote our appeal in some way please give us a hand! I'm thinking of Richard Gaskin, whose sensitivity to the issue has always been high. Richard help us! :oops:

Regarding the creation of "executables" actually the LiveCode "Miller edition" can also do without. I did a quick survey among the LiveCode teachers I know here in Italy and they confirmed that some kind of "LC version 7" is more than valid for teaching. Also for the fact that it has unicode and is "linkable" easily with the web.

It's been a long time since I've been on the forum and it seems a lot less alive :( ... but maybe it's time to liven it up a bit! :D
Help us forum friends!

Help LiveCode to go back to school!

Love

(='.'=)
Mariasole
"I'm back" - The Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 Series 800 Terminator


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Re: The day after

Post by FourthWorld » Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:26 pm

Mariasole wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:25 pm
On that note, those in this forum who can promote our appeal in some way please give us a hand! I'm thinking of Richard Gaskin, whose sensitivity to the issue has always been high. Richard help us! :oops:
I wish I could. Though I volunteered as Community Liaison for the open source initiative for many years, that ended on Aug 31. In recent years my contact with them has been a few minutes a year on the phone with Kevin, always enjoyable but rarely impactful. As I reflect back over the years, of the many proposals I've presented I think the adoption of "trueWord" as a name for a new token type was among the half-dozen or so that were acted on, and perhaps the most significant.

I'm just a customer like anyone else, with no more demonstrated ability to influence decision-making than any other.

I like your proposal, and if you haven't submitted it in email to the company directly I would encourage you to do so. I still believe there's much that can be done to expand LC's reach in the world.
Richard Gaskin
LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems
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Re: The day after (Help LiveCode to go back to school!)

Post by richmond62 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:09 am

There was some 'noise' about an online LiveCode course that one could PAY for
about 2 months ago: I cannot now find the weblink.

What I saw of it did nothing for me; others may disagree.

Were there indications of any interest whatsoever from the 'heartland"
I would get parents to sign disclaimers re video-ing their squabs and
(and this would involve a small amount of money) get someone along to
film my Summer class this July.

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