Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

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smelly
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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by smelly » Mon May 10, 2021 6:07 pm

When will LC get around to fixing the IDE so that we can use multiple monitors? Most professional programmers that I know use 2 or more screens, with the code and various other IDE components on separate screens. This has been a serious bug in LC for many years and caused me numerous LC crashes and many hours of frustrating troubleshooting to figure out what the cause of the crashes and other weird anomalies were. I'd be happy to compose and send you lots of videos demonstrating the issue.

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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by richmond62 » Mon May 10, 2021 7:51 pm

I find this comment rather odd as I have used LiveCode on both Linux and MacOS for something like 20 years across 1, 2 and 3 monitors
without any obvious problems at all . . .
-
TriplePlay.jpg

smelly
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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by smelly » Wed May 12, 2021 5:25 pm

And I have used LC for ~10 years on many different MacOS versions and hardware and have never been able to use more than one monitor without many crashes/freezes and a host of frustrating anomalies—unless under special circumstances as described below. I was tempted to qualify my initial post but for the sake of brevity did not. So here goes the details...and if necessary to illustrate, I'll post a plethora of freakish anomalies and freezes on YouTube.

Frankly, I confirmed this LC problem several years ago with a professional LC developer from whom i purchased some LiveCode sanctioned database system—which was a worthless purchase since I couldn't make it work due to these multiple monitor problems. That developer confirmed this has long been an LC bug.

First . . . you need to try both different and identical resolutions on those monitors. From the photo you show it seems your monitors either have different resolutions or use the same resolution; nor can I discern from the photo you show what the arrangement of your monitors have. You need to try different arrangements in System Preferences. I don't see any of your monitors in portrait mode. I'd be happy to show you a few hundred examples from the Internet where it is not uncommon to see programmers put their script-code on a tall side monitor in portrait mode. After applying portrait mode, shift the System Preferences display arrangement up and down and see how well LC works—it doesn't work unless you discover just the perfect arrangement. All too often on my side monitor, unless setup just perfect, when I drag my mouse through some text, the text a few inches above is selected, not where I dragged. And when I attempt to click on an object the actual click occurs well above where my mouse was pointing.

In addition, when I start LC, unless the (sys prefs) arrangement is just right (often a guessing game), my Toolbar Text/Icons panel starts up in the middle of my screen and cannot be moved elsewhere.

Let me repeat...LC has been exhibiting this problem for years on different Mac OS and hardware.

I have explored this bug extensively and discovered a lot about it. For example, one of the reasons LC sometimes freezes is when I employ a modal answer dialog. Unless the display arrangements (in sys prefs) and resolutions are just right the modal dialog is presented off screen. For a long time unbeknownst to me the freezes were due to some dialog hiding off screen somewhere. When I was lucky I would discover that an enter key would release it, but not always, especially when it is a dialog from the LC IDE and not from my script. Nowadays I always script using LC dialogs with "a sheet". That helps, but frankly, being accustomed to dozens of other programming languages (for over 40 years) where you can specifically place a dialog on screen (eg. Java and Python), I find that deficit in LC to be quite annoying and the root cause of one of these LC bugs.

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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by FourthWorld » Wed May 12, 2021 5:35 pm

Thanks for those details. Bug report numbers so we can follow the discussion?
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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by mwieder » Wed May 12, 2021 5:36 pm

Interesting.
If you query the screenrects (or the working screenrects) with your monitors in portrait mode, do they reflect reality? Or still the same results as if you were in landscape mode?

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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by richmond62 » Wed May 12, 2021 7:19 pm

For the record, in the picture I posted earlier my monitor resolutions are (left-to-right):

1600 x 1200
1080p (I hope you understand what that means: I don't)
1280 x 1024

LiveCode reports as follows:

1600 x 1200
1920 x 1080 (which makes a lot more sense to me than that "1080p")
1920,0,3200,1024 (which is fairly obscure)

Mac Mini 2018 (Intel), MacOS 11.4 beta 3

I have had rotatable monitors (i.e. ones than can work with landscape or with portrait)
connected to both Macintosh machines and Linux machines and NEVER in 20 years
had a single problem with LiveCode.

I also have never had to fiddle around with monitor settings to get LC to behave.

Disclaimer: LiveCode are not paying me (although quite a lot of times they may have thought about paying me to go away).

Why does this make me think there might be something else in your 'rig' (software?)
that is causing problems.

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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by FourthWorld » Wed May 12, 2021 10:24 pm

I searched the bug DB for "multiple monitors" and even "multiple displays" - zero results.

If the bug has been reported, sharing the URL or even just the bug report ID will allow us to get up to speed on the issue and know where the team is in dealing with it.

If the bug has not been reported, that choice will reduce the likelihood of a quick fix.

The Release Notes for v9.6.2rc6 not several bugs relating to non-responsive UI elements to accommodate Apple's API changes.

Whether those freezes are what smelly is experiencing or not cannot be known until smelly shares the bug report IDs for the "long-standing" freeze issues described above.
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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by mwieder » Wed May 12, 2021 10:36 pm

Richmond-

Does the screenrects report different values if you change the orientation of the monitors (portrait/landscape)?

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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by FourthWorld » Wed May 12, 2021 11:05 pm

mwieder wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:36 pm
Does the screenrects report different values if you change the orientation of the monitors (portrait/landscape)?
Mine do. My main work monitor is 1920x1600 in landscape, and to the right of it I have a 1600x1200 display rotated vertically (I use it for the Script Editor, bash terminals, etc). The monitors have their bottom edges aligned.

screenRects() returns:
0,400,1920,1600
1920,0,3120,1600
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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by richmond62 » Thu May 13, 2021 7:10 am

Does (sic) the screenrects report different values if you change the orientation of the monitors (portrait/landscape)?
Yes, they do.

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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by mwieder » Thu May 13, 2021 4:15 pm

"Does" is correct. The screenrects is a singular property that returns a list.

Does "the screenrects" may be more cognitively acceptable.

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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by richmond62 » Thu May 13, 2021 4:26 pm

"Does" is correct. The screenrects is a singular property that returns a list.
;

I stand corrected. 8)

smelly
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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by smelly » Tue May 25, 2021 1:00 am

richmond62: "used LiveCode on both Linux and MacOS for something like 20 years across 1, 2 and 3 monitors without any obvious problems at all"

You've been lucky. I've used LC on Macs for ~10 years on several generations of Mac hardware and software. LC always has had this multiple monitor bug, and it ofen renders LC impractical to use and unusable—unless I spend a lot of time experimenting with different monitor configurations to make it practical to use.

FYI, I presently experience this LC bug on both of my Mac computers which have dual monitors:

— iMac:
Intel i5, 3,29 GHz, 12 GB RAM, 250 GB SSD, running Mojave with landscape and portrait monitor;

&

— Mac Mini (late 2012)
Intel i5, 2,5 GHz, 4 GB RAM, 250 GB SSD, running High Sierra with landscape and portrait monitor.

Both exhibit the same anamolies, bugs, oddities. The monitors are each from a different manufacturer, and connected via either DVI, HDMI, or VGA.

The salient point here is that ONLY LIVECODE has been exhibiting this bug on a variety of my Mac hardware and software for many years. I have used hundreds of Mac applications over my 35+ years (since the 128K Classic in 1984) without experiencing this particular nature of crippling bugs. In addition, I have written hundreds of programs myself without experiencing such display bugs in C, C++, Ada, Pascal, BASIC, Javascript, Java, Python, Ruby, PHP, Hypertalk, Logo and ExperLogo (3D & OOP), Scratch, Lego NXT Robotics, and VRML/X3D 3D graphics.

Just to be absolutely sure this is a unique LC issue, this morning I ran some of my old programs using several programming IDEs: Eclipse (C & Java), PyCharm (Python), jGrasp (Ada, Java, C++), Netbeans (Java), a microcontroller embedded program using the Code Composer IDE, and finally Xcode (using Swift with an iPhone Simulator).

NONE OF THOSE PROGRAMS I WROTE USING THOSE LANGUAGES AND IDEs EXHIBITED THE DISPLAY ANOMALIES AND BUGS THAT LIVECODE DOES. WHY?

I also ran multiple windows on each of MS Word, Excel, and Firefox this morning—without any weird anomalies such as those I experience with LC, such as clicking on one button but the click actually being effected on another button and selecting one stretch of text with the mouse but seeing another stretch of text being highlighted!

As I suggested heretofore, to confirm this bug you should experiment with different monitor resolutions and arrangements, both landscape and portrait with multiple monitors, and ESPECIALLY rearranging the virtual relative placement of those monitors and the MacOS main menu title bar, within the System Preferences Display panel. Also try restarting the Mac and see if it corrects any anomalies that show up—it usually doesn't but sometimes does!

When the Tool bar shows up in the middle of one of my screens it cannot be relocated and it obstructs normal use of LC. No reconfiguration of monitor arrangements seems to restore the Tool bar to the top of my main screen until I reboot with only one monitor connected—and then maybe, I can make it work the way it should, when I later reattach the second monitor and boot the OS again.

I have uploaded several examples of these LiveCode oddities/bugs to YouTube. Please see them at YT by searching there for "Mel Ellington LiveCode". Unfortunately this forum doesn't allow me to provide a link pointing outside this forum.

The question remains: why don't any of my other applications and programming IDEs exhibit these errors; regardless of the version of MacOS and LiveCode (several versions of Indy & Community) which I have used over many years?

This is a longtime bug that hinders the practical use of LiveCode for me and probably for many others as well, who may walk away from LC in frustration.

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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by mwieder » Tue May 25, 2021 1:20 am

Eh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbLFS9V ... ccbY7IBech

OIC - you haven't posted enough yet to get authorization.

smelly
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Re: Current IDE Oddities and Obstacles

Post by smelly » Tue May 25, 2021 10:55 pm

mwieder: thanks for posting the hyperlink!
—Mel (smelly)

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