To those looking for programmers: Word of Warning!

[Bodape]

Here's a story which I hope might help some of you out there.

Back in September last year, I decided to build a software package/business which I had been planning for a while. Even though I had used Revolution a bit and knew that the Rev platform could handle the functionality I needed, I knew I wasn't a good enough programmer to bring it to market fast enough. My background was mainly in design and could build the interface in Rev quite easily which is what I did.

I came to the Rev forum and put out a post and also approached two regulars on the forum to see if they could help. They were either too busy or too expensive but by recommendation, I came across a programmer who said he would help and more importantly, knew the budget restraints but still seemed happy to continue. Don't forget, he was recommended to me as an expert, not a beginner. Up until this year, his company was even listed in the developers list on the Rev site. I thought I was in safe hands. His name is [deleted by moderator].

At the beginning there was a lot of talking to 'understand' the product. Lots of Skype time. Then I had to pay some money to get going. Then there was lots more talk. I had to pay some more money. Then there was even more talk. All the time I was assured that even though I wasn't seeing much in the way of working elements, it would be ready by January 2010.

Eventually, after around 3 months, I asked for a demo or simple working version for a meeting I had. What I received didn't work and was so bad, I couldn't use it. I wasn't impressed as it was already late December and as far as I could see, the package was no where near ready for January launch. Two or three deadlines where I asked to see a working version were missed. There was nothing to show and by that stage, I had paid half the budget.

Eventually, I had to tell him that this couldn't continue and that after 4 months, I had nothing to show for my investment. After repeatedly sending emails asking for at least half of my money back, I have heard nothing from him.

The simple facts are these. I approached him with a project and budget. He accepted. He understood what the package needed to do. Yes, there were a few extra elements but he always said he could do them and that was his choice. Yes you might say, didn't you get him to sign a contract? He signed an NDA but since he is a US citizen living [deleted by moderator], under which jurisdiction of law would he fall under? I have lost my money and have nothing to show for it and haven't heard from him since.

Programmers might try to cloud your mind with jargon and techno babble to lengthen or complicate the work they are doing but they still have to deliver a product and on time like everyone else in business.
- Unless you're dealing with a company with a reputation, I would NEVER advise to pay an individual programmer any money upfront.
- Always be very careful that who you choose can actually complete the project you've asked them to do.
- Programmers need to understand that clients must see working progress

Of course, this is just my experience but it has made me VERY mistrustful of programmers in general. Quite simply, I was ripped off by [deleted by moderator] who was seen as one of the experts of the Rev platform. So please be very careful before you invest money in him or any programmer without proper safe guards.

Many thanks

[Dixie]

Bodape...

Would you send me your email address, I would like to speak with you offlist...
john@ihouse.on-rev.com ... or skype : john.dixon.england ... usually on in the morning.

be well

Dixie

[Mark]

Bodape,

I know [delete by moderator] as an experienced, trustworthy, colleague with great expertise in Revolution programming. He is also a highly respected member of the RunRev community. I am sure he is reasonable and has tried all he could do to keep you happy. [delete by moderator] makes great products and has released several sophisticated programmes.

You, on the other hand, call yourself Bodape and don't provide any traceable information about yourself. Shame on you to mention [delete by moderator] with his full name, while cowardly hiding behind your forum user name!

I am sure that you are still able to reach a reasonable agreement with [delete by moderator]. It might take an apology and a raise of the budget, partly to compensate for your attitude, and you will have to be patient, but I see no reason why [delete by moderator] wouldn't deliver the work as agreed on.

You should keep in mind, that whenever one starts a project with a new partner, there are many factors that determine whether co-operation will be successful or not. Successful co-operation indeed means a lot of time dedicated to communication.

It also requires sufficient budget to make the project beneficial to the programmer. If you were really on a very tight budget, you should thank [delete by moderator] on your bare knees for being willing to work with you! Instead of impatiently bugging him to hurry up with the work on your project, you should have kindly asked him what you can do to make the work easier for him. Programmers are also only human!

Your post on this forum is absolutely beyond all limits of decency.

Your sincerely,

Mark Schonewille
Economy-x-Talk
Netherlands
m.schonewille ( at ) economy-x-talk (dot) com

[FourthWorld]

I'm writing here in response to a complaint about this thread. As an assistant moderator here my mandate is limited to ditching spam posts, but this one merits equal attention and has been brought to the attention of the administrators.

The following is only my own personal opinion, and not the opinion of any other moderator or any employee of RunRev Ltd.:

What we've heard from the anonymous "Bodape" is of course only one side of the story. There's at least one other view we haven't heard.

While "Bodape" has called into question the integrity of one of the forum's members, the manner in which it was done raises questions of his/her own professional judgment: An anonymous and potentially libelous post to a public forum seems a poor choice for conflict resolution.

Given that this post is the only thing "Bodape" has chosen to share about himself/herself, the discerning reader has little from which to draw a favorable opinion of the poster. "Bodape" has made it easy to imagine the tenor of the communications that led to this moment, and surmise that perhaps it may not have been solely as described, but instead as we can perceive here for ourselves from such a post.

I would encourage "Bodape" to participate in this forum and the Rev community, as there is much to be gained from these resources. But I would advise more prudent judgment about the nature of such participation. This forum does not seem the place for airing personal vendettas.

[BvG]

I too recently had a very rough project due to bad contractual workers (tho not with a Rev project, but with a small customer database implementation). There almost was a lawsuit over unpaid bills. In the end, we met in the middle of our respective ideas about outstanding compensation, due to official state mandated mediation. We had lots of face to face meetings, and only half a year into the project the whole thing came down.

Said that, I would never write the contractors name or the relevant product on a forum. These things are kept forever, and can ruin a persons business. I did contact other people who did business with the person I was unhappy with (I met them both live and per mail), and those seemed very pleased with the services and implementations offered. Sometimes people just don't get together, or an unusual happening or accident can throw a contractor out of the loop, etc.

A failure of a project is always very frustrating, but in case of emergency breakdown, it doesn't really matter wether one has a single contractor or microsoft contracting (if such a thing exists).

So, although I think it's a good idea to try to get mr [contractors name] to reply to you (did you try to write a "[contractors name], please write back" letter on use-revolution?), I think you should not write his name in a rant like that, even if you'd have written your own name and credentials.

edit: removed name

[FourthWorld]

Given the unanimous opinion of the participants here, I have taken the liberty of deleting the contractor's name. The thread itself may have merit as the basis for a discussion of mitigating risks in contracting programmers and exploring methods of conflict resolution, but it seemed more appropriate to continue the discussion without personal attacks.

[AndyP]

Bodape,

Firstly, although I do not know [name] it is very bad form for you to publish his name (no matter how unhappy you are) on an open forum. It's also not going to help you get another developer onboard.
Ok got that off my chest... now moving on.

Asking a developer to work for you and expecting them not to have any payment up-front will not get you very far. By the time the developer actually gets to do any coding you and they will already have spent a lot of time discussing the project and the developer would have spent much more time researching and pre-planning the build, this is time you the client do not see.

No matter what the size of project I always require 25% of the estimated cost of the full project (note estimated) prior to commencement.

It's important to have fixed project review dates/stages/payments agreed from the start.
Once it has been agreed by both parties that the review stage has been completed and signed off, a further preset payment is required by the client prior to continuing to the next stage review.
At every review stage cost and time figures are evaluated and reset if required by agreement.
At the final review and at project sign off a final payment is made.

This process keeps both parties informed and reduces the 'surprises' that can come if stage reviews are not implemented and also keeps the project moving forward.

Progress reports are posted on-line to keep the client informed on what's happening between reviews, the client can add notes to these.

I've found that an open honest dialogue is by far the single most important ingredient of a successful project.

I hope you have found this constructive...that's the way it's meant to be.

[Bodape]

Since most of you who have responded are programmers, I understand your points of view and why you would make them. Mark, you should write theatrical scripts for a living, you're a natural. But you are all missing my underlying point.

Forget whether I should have mentioned his name or not. I agree perhaps I shouldn't have done. I was simply trying to stop other people looking for programmers falling into the same potential trap. We can all sit back and judge from our ivory towers, but words are cheap. All I heard from this person was talk. When push came to shove, a business transaction was done and this person failed to deliver and now I'm out of pocket and after many emails, am not hearing back from this person. Is that right? Are you defending that? You think I've done something wrong?

The only thing I did wrong was not force him into signing a proper contract. I agree AndyP, that was my failing.

Did I force him to do this job? No. Did I lie to him about the budget? No. Did he have to do this job? No.
Of course there are two sides but when the facts are simple, what else is there to say? If you accept to do something and by a certain time, you do it. If I say to my clients..'Oh yes, I'll do that for you but you might get it sometime in the next 6 months' and ignore deadlines, they would laugh at me.

I get sick and tired of people doing wrong and getting away with it because of political correctness or etiquette. All I wanted to do was warn others of my experience because at the end of the day and no matter how you try to defend the other party, I'm sitting here out of pocket with no real hope of getting anything back.

Anyway, I've said enough and will not continue with this anymore.
Thanks

[BvG]

I think you are still very emotional. In your post you concentrated on the one criticism, and ignored all the Advice that where given.

Rationally it's clear that projects fail, and the number one failure is exactly what you just voiced: Unhappy customers

I'm sure you can contact the person via the use mailing list. Just ask him to contact you. Maybe his email server is miss-configured, and he didn't notice? Maybe you do have other contact possibilities then mail?

[Bodape]

I would like to 'publically' apologise for mentioning his name. This was washing dirty laundry in public and perhaps should not have done it.

Yes, I did and do want to resolve this and want him to contact me as he has ignored all of my emails asking him to do such. But until now, I haven't had the opportunity to resolve this amicably because I haven't heard from him. Why would he do that?

So Mr Gaskin and others, I have been trying to be reasonable from the very beginning but when you hear a wall of silence, what are you supposed to think?

[Dixie]

Bodape...

I'd still like to talk with you...
john@ihouse.on-rev.com

Dixie

[richmond62]

About 7 years ago I developed a complex program using RunRev 1.1.1. for a company in Scotland. The chap cheated me; plain and simple; I have received
nothing by way of the royalties that were promised. The chap and his company went "down the tubes" as well because he obviously didn't know what he
was doing.

So; what did I do?

Shrugged my shoulders, muttered a few rude expressions, and moved on . . .

Frankly all this is hardly worth discussing.

In my own case, the fact that the chap cheated me was almost 100% my fault because I just accepted him and his company at face value.

From that moment on I have worked for myself. Any work I have done for anybody else I have done free of charge (and, oddly enough,
every time I have received some sort of reward for my efforts) on the basis that that is better than feeling all bitter and twisted when one
is cheated.

The person lurking behind "Bodope" needs to do 2 things:

1. stop lurking behind some daft name like a delayed adolescent in a 1970s role-play game.

2. have a long, hard think as to how much the fact they feel cheated is their own fault.

The prophet Muhammed said that one should never, never pay for goods and services until after they have been delivered . . .

[InfoCentral]

I get sick and tired of people doing wrong and getting away with it because of political correctness or etiquette. All I wanted to do was warn others of my experience because at the end of the day and no matter how you try to defend the other party, I'm sitting here out of pocket with no real hope of getting anything back.

Let me be the first then to say that I agree with you 100%. If you have a contract, agreed upon deadlines, and are paying out money then the product needs to be forthcoming on a timely basis. If I agree to deliver a product on x day then on x day you can rest assured that you will be receiving it. I don't deliver excuses I deliver results! I expect that from those I hire as well. It would really piss me off too if I had to face my customer and deliver excuses based on my hiring decision. Which is probably why I don't entrust anything to anybody anymore.

[Mark]

Which is probably why I don't entrust anything to anybody anymore.

That doesn't make life much easier, I think.

No matter what happened, scolding publicly at someone while mentioning the person's full name is just not done. It is even worse since OP chose to stay anonymous. I'm glad that Bodape apologised and that all mentions of the name of the person being discussed have been removed by the moderator.

Best,

Mark

[InfoCentral]

No matter what happened, scolding publicly at someone while mentioning the person's full name is just not done.

See, now that is were we disagree. I have no problem calling someone out in the open as long as I have my facts straight. If Bodape is correct in that:

1) He paid this programmer
2) He had deadlines that the programmer never met
3) He never got a working version
4) He tried repeatedly to contact said programmer but was ignored.

I don't see the liability. Being libel is saying knowingly false information. If the information given is all true there is no hiding from public humiliation. You get what you deserve. If you did these things to me you can bet I'll be calling you out on it in the open forums and you can forget about your anonymity! Just do what is right and try to go above and beyond the call and you'll be fine.