Possibly the worst effect of removing the Open Source version.

[richmond62]

I have a feeling that almost ALL of the users of the Open Source version of LiveCode have stopped
contributing to the LiveCode Forums; leaving it poorer.

Unfortunately, while an effort is being made to get a continuing Open Source initiative up and running,
that is not attracting any programming contributions; mainly because there is, as yet, no Open Source
continuer software.

[FourthWorld]

No one ever expected an audience of scripters to somehow become C++ experts just because a new license option was added.

Code contributions to LC are likely on par with upstream contributions from LC to any of the many FOSS packages LC depends on (listed in licenses.txt).

If the value of open source were measured solely by user/contributor ratios, Linux would appear a failure even as it's the most widely used OS (consider all computing device types), as would all major web browsers.

That said, the general awareness of the LiveCode language is still low enough that even a normal contributor ratio yields volunteer C++ experts likely too small in number to be viable.

Whether FOSS or proprietary, awareness of a programming language is key to success.

[stam]

I have a feeling that almost ALL of the users of the Open Source version of LiveCode have stopped
contributing to the LiveCode Forums; leaving it poorer.

Unfortunately, while an effort is being made to get a continuing Open Source initiative up and running,
that is not attracting any programming contributions; mainly because there is, as yet, no Open Source
continuer software.

It’s not just that contributions have stopped. It’s also that fewer people asking questions (presumably FOSS users), which in turn means that fewer solutions are given or devised, so there is less interesting discussion.

As a result I am seeing some unsolicited tutorial threads popping up, presumably to compensate for this. But it’s really not the same, and the lengthier one of these is so tedious I just mark that whole sub forum as read without reading (I land here using the ‘new posts’ function so have to do this almost all times I visit the forum).

There has been a definite change in the forums which is sad…

[richmond62]

As a result I am seeing some unsolicited tutorial threads popping up

slightly guilty here.

I have also noticed one or two new posters who are obviously looking for spoon-feeding . . .

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the main idea behind these forums was for a mutual
exchange of information rather than a series of online classes (plenty of those lying around elsewhere).

[richmond62]

Whatever the "beef" about the end of the Open Source version (and there's plenty of 'beef' that is now lying
around the internet, some generated by me), the FACT that we all enjoyed some 8-9 years of unfettered
access to LiveCode (and can continue to do so as long as we are content to work with the existing O S versions)
is a marvellous thing and why, suddenly, those users should dry up strikes me as very odd indeed as, presumably,
their on-going LiveCode projects have not suddenly stopped dead in their tracks, and, unless they are horribly
over-confident about things, they will, sooner or later, require help, advice and a need to exchange ideas about
their work.

Certainly, I have been fooling myself for years that these Forums supported a healthy, vibrant ecosystem of
the sort I have described above.

I have given plenty of my time to help people, and many, many people have given plenty of their time to help
me (something for which I am extremely grateful).

[AxWald]

Hi,

I have a feeling that almost ALL of the users of the Open Source version of LiveCode have stopped
contributing to the LiveCode Forums; leaving it poorer.

I've spent considerable time here, each month in the past years. I've answered a lot of questions, provided many code examples, made speed comparisons, documented bugs. Not uncommonly I've 'donated' half a day of my working time (or even more) to a single problem. Not uncommonly more than once a month.

The basis of this was that I use the community version for various reasons, and this 'basis of transaction' has ceased to exist. Not only has the community version been withdrawn, it has been done in a quite unfriendly way. It wasn't this bad here, but on the mailing list, where the 'powers that be' dwell among themselves, quite harsh words have been uttered, unopposed.

So the deal has been cancelled by LC Ltd., which is their good right. And they have made it clear they don't want any of this 'open source stuff' in their domain anymore.
My 'part of the deal', as I saw it, was to deliver support - I'm a by far better supporter than C++ coder (or GitHubber ...). So I took this task, and can honestly say that even if I use vastly reduced hourly wages, I've 'paid' for the equivalent of 2 or 3 of the 'big packets' of LC, each year.
But the deal has been cancelled by LC Ltd., obviously they have better ideas.

Besides, any code I write is written using the Community Version. This makes it GPL v3, and thus 'poisoned' & unusable for owners of the proprietary versions. So I'd better avoid posting any code here anyways, it might be seen as 'incitement of license violation' & get me banned :/

Whether FOSS or proprietary, awareness of a programming language is key to success.

Edinburgh will disagree. Or not care about?

Have fun!

[richmond62]

AxWald, it would be extremely hard to disagree with you.

It would, also, however, be wonderful if there were some sort of Forum that could take over the
role these Forums played during the "Open Source Interregnum".

Sometimes I think of the sad image of a fox that has chewed its foot off to escape from a trap only to
die of the infection in the foot later.

[richmond62]

Have fun!

Not that much at the moment, I'm afraid.

[stam]

slightly guilty here.

wasn't referrring to you Richmond.

I specfically had in mind a user called 'xAction' is pretty much spamming the game subforum with a never ending stream of posts which are frankly unreadable in their totality. There is no way a reader, especially a beginner, can read all posts in sequence and gain something from that.

Interstingly this user, while clearly very experienced in LC, seems to only have posted the number of posts in this thread - i.e. highly likey to be a fake persona of a long term user or from LC ltd.
Even more intrestingly, this person doesn't respond to any one else's posts. The whole thing reeks a bit...

[richmond62]

'xAction'

Someone is being nasty.

2 wrongs do not make a right, and this will not end well.

[FourthWorld]

All I see with the xAction account is a nicely written tutorial series.

It would benefit the company more to post under their own name, do I doubt they'd devote the time to posting this at all, let alone crafting a persona for ghostwriting.

Occam's Razor suggests the account is simply what it appears to be, someone posting a tutorial series.

And I can't imagine how a tutorial series could be seen as off-topic in a forum for learning how to use LiveCode.

[SparkOut]

I see a documentation of a journey to create a game.
I for one have had PM communication with xAction and appreciate the effort made.
The forum is not the "ideal" place to render a clear tutorial or even "blog" about it, but it's a perfectly valid contribution, for which xAction should be thanked.

[stam]

Sharing, asking and answering questions is always good, no doubt. All contributors to this forum are and have been invaluable to learning and improving coding practice in LC, by and large. Most forum users will at some point contribute a bit of knowledge or solutions that are genuinely useful, or will ask questions that spark a helpful discussion, and both are essential to learning LC.

Which is why I raised an eyebrow at the fact the OP of that thread joined the forum the same day as his/her first post
It's of course also fully possible that someone who is experienced in LC has never previously joined the forums and never, ever posted on the forum before posting a 50-segment tutorial.
To me it seems less likely... no nastiness was intended and neither did i post any negative comments.

As to whether this is a 'good' tutorial - i don't find that to be the case, for me anyway.
I tried to follow the endless listing of code, but it's really quite hard to find the attention span required to use the format of this forum to read a tutorial of an app that spans 50 posts with multiple code segments in each.

Is the end product of this tutorial is any good? It may well be, but i downloaded a stack that ran at about 2-3 FPS. My comment on this went unanswered (which in the spirit of a tutorial is not optimal).
In the end i stopped bothering and just list the whole subform as read - which is what i said above. Again, no nastiness intended but for me the seemingly endless posting with no discussion became equivalent to spam, so I just marked it as read and moved on.

Creating a good tutorial of any length is hard and time-consuming (arguably at least as hard as the work the tutorial describes) and requires a medium that is suited to the task. A website would be good (heck, you can do it for free on GitHub). When instead the format becomes a 50-post monologue, it risks becoming a drag.

Out of curiosity - has anyone actually read all 50 posts? and put that code to the test?

--- EDIT ---
Following this, i revisited the thread and downloaded the most recent stack with the required data files. On Mac, the frame rate is about 2-3 FPS (no idea how this performs on Win/Linux). So I have to agree it's unlikely this is from LC Ltd

[stam]

And I can't imagine how a tutorial series could be seen as off-topic in a forum for learning how to use LiveCode.

My father in law was very proud of his 'elective hearing'.

I suspect Richard that you have 'electively read' part of the thread only

The off-topic OP was that the content of the forum has changed since dropping open source:

I have a feeling that almost ALL of the users of the Open Source version of LiveCode have stopped
contributing to the LiveCode Forums; leaving it poorer.

That tutorials were mentioned and the last few posts focused on a lengthy thread posted as a tutorial doesn't change the discussion.

[FourthWorld]

Thanks for the clarification, Stam.

I wasn't responding to anything you'd written. I had meant to include the snippet I was replying to, but the editing here is finicky and I was busy:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the main idea behind these forums was for a mutual exchange of information rather than a series of online classes (plenty of those lying around elsewhere).

My "elective reading" is the hundreds of other pages I read every day. So when I come here I do tend to move fast. Life is short enough as it is, and there's a lot of ground to cover.

Going forward when I don't have time for sufficiently careful editing I'll just skip writing a potentially confusing reply and just keep moving.

Carry on...