Post
by JackieBlue1970 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:53 pm
Thanks for your response Richmond.
1. "LiveCode doesn’t feel very professional" . . .
"I always wonder exactly HOW one defines professional,
and I feel a claim like this should backed up with some points of comparison."
Perhaps a better way to describe it would be a lack of "polish". There are a lot of interesting things about LC. As I said, I am using it for projects for my business. But many features fell like they took it to a certain point and stopped. You can get around them (like aligning objects) or they are not relevant (like cursors at the wrong, focus delay), but it gives it a different feel than most commercial software. It is not any different than most of the projects I code, but I am not selling my projects.
"1.1. "either on their website" . . .
Always has been a bit of a mess."
Honestly, if you are marketing a commercial product. Again, this is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black since my business' website could be better but most of our business is on eBay, Amazon, etc. so it hasn't taken priority.
1.2. "or even the product itself"
"I don't know what that means."
See not polished above.
The IDE is accessible and usable.
I recently had a "Python patch" which required me to search out all sorts of modules to
strap onto the language just to get a button and a field.
Python is open source and maintained by mostly volunteers. You do not pay $500 a year for Python. I don't disagree that Python is a mess, especially trying to do a website or any kind of UI. I have a couple of projects in Python myself but they are services that run in the background. One of the things that attracted me to LC was the ease of creating a user interface without spending a lot of time installing frameworks and such. I get tired of the frameworks and update and like the "all in one solution". I could have continued to use Visual Studio C#/VB, which is totally free for our level of work but got tired of dealing with BS.
2. " LiveCode appears to be a for profit business."
Well, let's examine what constitutes a "for profit business" . . .
"2.1. I understand a "for profit business" to mean that the owners are trying to make as much money as possible to
shove in their personal bank accounts and become Jeff Bezos number 2.
2.2. I also understand a different market model where all the employees of a company, its owner and any ancillary
workers have fixed salaries, and any monies accruing above that are ploughed back into the company for consumables."
Generally, yes. I run a for profit business. Only 2 employees, and any profit above operating expense is ploughed back into the company for growth. This is how most "for profit" businesses operate. We pay taxes and such too, just like I'm sure LC does.
3. "they seem to rely on donations to enhance their product (HTML 5)" . . .
I would call their company a "mixed system".
[Admittedly I think the HTML 'thing' at the moment is very substandard
and needs an awful lot of work if it is ever going to take off.]
Mixed system? Yes, strange. Exactly my point. I do not ask my customers to donate money for enhancements or growth of our business. That's my job - to figure out how to make it happen. If I fail, that's it.
Recently I visited some gardens in Bruton (England) where they had a shop and a restaurant, AND a donation box.
Now, obviously, if you wanted to buy one of their (ridiculously over-priced) books, tea towels or what-have-you
the company were making some sort of 'profit', but looking at the gardens and the level of maintenance
required I don't think Herr Hauser was raking in the shekels.
I do not know it works in Europe but in the US all of these gift shops at museums and parks are non-profit. All of the profits above operating expenses are in turn used to acquire land, goods, etc. that enhance the museum. Most of these here in the US are foundations or non-profit organizations. I can donate money to them and it is a tax deduction (qualifies, but its a long story whether you can take it or not). For example, I donate money to the American Chestnut Tree Foundation. I also buy books and such from them. All of the money goes to the restoration of the American Chestnut Tree in its native range. They are not asking for donations to enhance a product that they will then sell to the public.
4. "and the current COVID situation."
"Indeed: and I do think they are in trouble business-wise. "
They should be killing it right now. Pushing coding as a hobby, skills enhancement, and side hustle. If you have an internet connection, you can do all of this with LC without leaving your home. A lot of people are looking at new hobbies right now. Why are they not growing? At the very least it should have been little change. The only reasonable explanation would be if they are overly reliant on the education market and with schools closed and tightening budget, it may have an adverse effect. But, this doesn't seem to be the case based on your comments later in this thread.
"I donated a modest sum as they have been extremely generous and helpful to me in the past for the simple reason
that their company has a human face."
I didn't donate but did buy the lessons and dictionaries ($88 of stuff) because it is easier for me to review than googling all day. But, I saw that as receiving a product, not a donation.
5. "I’m not even sure how Covid would impact most of their business since it is a software product that is downloadable."
"That strikes me as a slightly silly remark. Let me tell you about my own situation during the "merry plague":
I depend for my income on an EFL school in Bulgaria. During the plague I have been teaching online and my income has dropped to about 50%
of its normal level for all sorts of reasons. "
I don't think your situation is analogous to Live Code's. You had to adapt to a totally new situation. I assume EFL is some type of foreign language school. You had in person students I assume. I would think adapting a group in-person setting to a Teams or Zoom call would be very difficult. LC was in a different situation. Their distribution model had ZERO changes. It has been internet for a long time now.
"5.2 Supply chain problems; supply chains are also screwed up by the virus."
Not sure how supply chain problems would effect LC. It did effect my business as I sell physical products. If I was selling services or non-physical products, then there would have been no impact from supply chain.
"5.3. Continuing development.
The software world is not a static thing."
No, it is not static at all. Not sure what the point of this comment.
"Just for one, Apple are about to transition to ARM processors: for LiveCode to continue to offer what it does on those processors
an awful lot of work will have to be done."
Yes, it will. And LC will either do the development needed and continue to sell their product, charge appropriately. If they don't, a competitor will make the change and we will all end up coding on something else. This doesn't effect much, especially outside of a few specialty applications, Mac is not much of a market leader here in the US. Besides, iPhones are already ARM processors and LC already works there.
6. " The product is pretty good" . . . seems to contradict "LiveCode doesn’t feel very professional" . . .
"When I see people contradicting themselves I normally defocus and start fantasizing about a cup of coffee."
It is not a bad product and "not professional" are very different statements. I don't think Python, Code::Blocks/C/C++ etc. are bad product either. But they all have their quirks and non-professional aspects. It is a relative measure. But, they are not charging for their product.
6.1. "but it has little quirks" . . . so do I, You and the rest of the world.
"Personally I read "has little quirks" as meaning "things I haven't worked out yet, or got used to yet." "
Yes, as a teacher saying you "haven't got used to" versus, "it could have been done better. or clearer". I have not got used to many things but have coded for long enough (20+ years) to know that some things are intuitive and some thing are not.
8. "Xojo especially seems more professional" . . .
"In what way? "
Take a look at their website. Take a look at their web demo vs LC HTML5. Take a look at who uses their product. See if there is a donate page for the product. Xojo and LC are very similar in terms of product (Xojo doesn't do android yet). Try the product if you want. Xojo is much more polished.
"LiveCode is not perfect, nor will it ever be. But perfection is an illusion."
Perfection is not something that can be obtained or expected.
"What LiveCode offers is unusual, and it is backed up by people who, while being computer experts,
do come across as caring, human individuals."
I agree 95%. I would not say it that unusual in this day and age as there are options (Xojo is only one). I agree that the users and team of LC are very passionate. Part of what attracted me in the first place. I chose LC because of this and I wanted the option for Android if I ever wrote mobile apps. I'm fortunate in that I could pay for the software (not really sure that I had to since it mostly internal) and was willing to risk using it. But, I'm not so naive as to be an ultimate fan boy for using it. I give what I think is an honest opinion after using it off and on for several years, but much more seriously in the last few months.