Wait...WHAT?!?

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bogs
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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by bogs » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:10 am

FourthWorld wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:02 am
bogs wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:58 am
...'no code' IDEs/platforms out there...
The comments were illuminating.
Yes, I especially found this one to be quite funny (emphasis mine)...
I've worked at companies that successfully used Excel as an interface but only as a shallow front with all the business logic in a back end written in a real programming language (not VB). RAD tools are great for small, quick and dirty programs but can't do abstractions and generalisations well or at all. "Real" programming excel at abstractions, generalisations and compartmentalisation because over time, that is what matters.
Considering how many business grade applications were written solely in VB, I wonder why it would be denegrated in any conversation haha. The last bit of that quote really makes me wonder what the heck he is on about. I begin to think about his 5 cup of gin :P

Talk about snooty :D
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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by richmond62 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:18 am

"Talk about snooty"

Come on, bogs, we all know that the only real programming is done by over-weight men with lupus
on blind terminals in rooms with no windows.

I have even heard people talk about something called a "gooey" as if it is somehow respectable: sounds like a sticky bun to me. :D

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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by SparkOut » Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:14 pm

Yeah there are some partisan people about for sure. It can be the same with Mac/Windows/Linux, and a bunch of other polarized groups that I mentioned then deleted because this shouldn't be about confrontation or political struppagens.

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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:16 pm

The VPL/"no code" vs coding debate is a lot like comparing FileMaker to LiveCode:

Where FileMaker does what you want, attempting to replicate that in LiveCode will almost always cost more.

But the moment you need something outside of what FileMaker is designed for, it's difficult or impossible to try to get it happening there, but could likely be done in LiveCode.

Any system composed of prefabricated components will express the constraints of those components.

Use what works for the task at hand.
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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by stam » Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:41 pm

Old thread, came across this accidentally - found it interesting, sorry for zombifying it!

I wasn't really aware of Scratch but it looks a lot like many other low-code/no-code IDEs but with unicorns...

It's also is very reminiscent of Apple's Automator (without the unicorns!) - if you're not familiar, have a look here: https://macosxautomation.com/automator/ - basically a no-code interface for AppleScript. AppleScript itself is very similar to x-talk and i think was based on Hypertalk back in the day.

I wonder if an Automator-like tool for LiveCode wouldn't make it more approachable to a wider audience, as well as introduce something new and exciting. Much like Automator, with the underlying AppleScript still there if you want it, a similar paradigm could be applied to LiveCode without detracting from what LiveCode currently offers and could potentially be a nice hook to get students and others onboard?

Richard makes a great point of about constraints and usability in his comparison between FileMaker and LiveCode - but this may be a way to have your cake and eat it?

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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by richmond62 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:51 pm

As soon as you step away from code to low-code/no-code IDEs you are in a different world
altogether: it is like moving from a stick-shift car to one of those self-driving things: you ahve
to go where it wants and in terms of fine-grained tuning: well, yeah, if you like controlling a pencil
gripped between 2 heels!

You make get a lot of cake, but you may also choke on the crumbs, and you certainly will not be able
to chew with that sideways motion so beloved of sheep and other ruminants, even if they treat you
like a sheep with a one-size-fits-all-dumbed-down-to-the-point-of-inanation IDE.

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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by stam » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:04 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:51 pm
As soon as you step away from code to low-code/no-code IDEs you are in a different world
altogether: it is like moving from a stick-shift car to one of those self-driving things: you ahve
to go where it wants and in terms of fine-grained tuning: well, yeah, if you like controlling a pencil
gripped between 2 heels!

You make get a lot of cake, but you may also choke on the crumbs, and you certainly will not be able
to chew with that sideways motion so beloved of sheep and other ruminants, even if they treat you
like a sheep with a one-size-fits-all-dumbed-down-to-the-point-of-inanation IDE.
Not sure i would entirely agree with your hyperbole there Richmond ;)

To come back to my analogy, I've used automator and AppleScript quite a lot on mac without choking, feeling remotely sheep-like or using my heels to control a pencil. I know what can be done with Automator; for stuff not covered with Automator, i'll either use pure appleScript or more likely, embed AppleScript in my Automator workflow.

As an example i have an automator workflow that runs every start up to mount various network partitions and do stuff and includes both shell script and AppleScript in it. It does't mean i don't now use AppleScript, but it has facilitated some areas of scripting for me. Low-Code doesn't mean no-code and doesn't mean you abandon the existing IDE - like Automator in my mind it's best viewed as a workflow, rather than a replacement. An option.

Point is, liveCode is great, but sometimes you want something quick and easy for a workflow rather than a full app. And it may be a nice way to pull in people who would otherwise not engage with LC.

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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by richmond62 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:11 pm

Not sure i would entirely agree with your hyperbole there Richmond
Humph: well, yes, tired after a long day that involved explaining to several parents why their blobs would still
start at the starting line in my programming courses even though they had knocked together Super-Mario
knock-off games in Scratch.

My anti-Scratch "scratch" is because it reminds me of when my parents decided to teach me to swim and
started by equipping me with a pair of flippers: I learnt to swim quite well with those flippers: when dad took them
off I sank like a stone.

Children can become adept at using Scratch and Scratch-like IDEs, but when they transfer to LiveCode, C# or Python
they are "lost." AND, as my concerns revolve around education, while I have no real objection as such to Scratch, I do
find it worrying that it is promoted as computer programming.

So, I am sorry if I got a bit hyperbolous (erm, is that a word?), but the educational bee in my bonnet . . .

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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by stam » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:45 pm

Fair enough ;)

But isn't all education like that in the end? Bite-sized chuncks, superficial learning as a bridge to deeper learning. I can think back to many occasions in my school years where i went from Mr-know-it-all to wtf-is-going-on as I've gone up the educational ladder.

The world around us us full of stuff we understand on a superficial level but drop us in deeper and we'd be completely lost... is that pointless?
To use your example - yes, without your flippers you couldn't really swim, but at that point you had already overcome your fear of water and knew what aim for and i'm guessing you're a good swimmer now!


PS: I don't think hyperbolous is a word! Hyperbolic?

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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by mwieder » Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:39 am

"Hyperbolic" I think of as more related to a hyperbola than to hyperbole. Notwithstanding that,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolus

But back to things...
Scratch is a programming language because (my definition of a programming language, and why html isn't a programming language) it has conditionals. Granted they seem somewhat limited, but it also is event-driven (mouse, keyboard, messages). I haven't used scratch per se, so I can't really comment more on it, but I've done a bit with a similar tool, Blockly. Blockly is a more advanced sort of visual block-oriented tool and can immediately generate more "standard" languages from a working concept. Exports to javascript, arduino, etc.

From an educational perspective, any of these tools, LC included, will give the learners the basics of variables, conditionals, events, etc. which can then be carried over into other language realms later on in schools.

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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by FourthWorld » Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:26 am

stam wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:41 pm
I wonder if an Automator-like tool for LiveCode wouldn't make it more approachable to a wider audience, as well as introduce something new and exciting. Much like Automator, with the underlying AppleScript still there if you want it, a similar paradigm could be applied to LiveCode without detracting from what LiveCode currently offers and could potentially be a nice hook to get students and others onboard?

Richard makes a great point of about constraints and usability in his comparison between FileMaker and LiveCode - but this may be a way to have your cake and eat it?
A no-code front-end is a perfect compliment to LiveCode.

I've spent plenty of time exploring that question with LC and others, with various parts and pieces gathered along the way.

I have everything I need to deliver it - except the spare cash to spend the months away from client work needed to pull it off.
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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by stam » Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:31 am

FourthWorld wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:26 am
I have everything I need to deliver it - except the spare cash to spend the months away from client work needed to pull it off.
Very interesting... is there any mileage in crowdfunding this do you think?

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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by richmond62 » Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:58 am

superficial learning as a bridge to deeper learning
It might be time for me to put my Taekwondo suit on again after 18 years: mind you my
middle-aged "pot" might cause a problem there. Reminds me of when I did a flying kick
during my green-belt exam and managed to split my trousers: lots of ribald laughter
all round: especially when the Master presented me with the belt.

Scratch is certainly superficial, so superficial it hardly scratches the surface. :twisted:
Think of learning chess by drawing pictures.

LiveCode as a teaching tool strikes just the right sort of balance between superficial and deep: think of learning top play
chess by learning checkers.

LiveCode can also be used all the way from checkers to Hexagonal chess without having to "changes horses in the middle of the race",
which is what a child has to do if s/he starts off on Scratch (and finds out that riding a kiddy bike with stabilisers has not prepared
them for a full-blown stallion).

The "superficial learning as a bridge to deeper learning" theory of education does not thrill my gorilla at all, as superficial is
always superficial, and even some superficial learning may actually prove a barrier to later deeper learning.

My father told me how, when he was 5 years old, he was taught to read with something called the Initial Teaching Alphabet:
-
ITA.jpg
ITA.jpg (7.08 KiB) Viewed 5476 times
-
that employed an expanded alphabet, and was designed on the theory that if children learnt this first, learning the standard
English alphabet would be easier.

He became extremely proficient at reading using the ITA: and when he was presented with books written using standard English
he broke down in tears and found it extremely difficult to swap over.

Looking at the ITA, I can see that it is dead easy to learn: but then it is going to be a pain-in-the-bum having to unlearn half
of that and learn a new way of doing things: and the parallels between Scratch-like IDEs and other programming systems
should be clear to anyone.

As I teach English to children who write their language using the Cyrillic alphabet they experience quite a lot of problems insofar
as the Cyrillic alphabet and the Latin alphabet (used to write English) have quite a number of false friends (letters that look the same
but have completely different phonetic values): when I taught children whose first languages were Urdu, Arabic, Gujarati and Hindi
no such problems arose as their home writing systems are completely dissimilar to the Latin alphabet.
Last edited by richmond62 on Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by richmond62 » Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:01 am

A no-code front-end is a perfect compliment to LiveCode.
I would not doubt that for a minute if it is to be advocated as a thing
for people to make Powerpoint knock-offs, but not if it is to be advocated as a step
in learning how to code with LiveCode.

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Re: Wait...WHAT?!?

Post by richmond62 » Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:08 am

Scratch is a programming language because (my definition of a programming language, and why html isn't a programming language) it has conditionals.
Well, possibly, and we can argue the case till we are all blue in the face as to what does and what does not
constitute a programming language. Frankly I feel that arguing about whether Scratch is or isn't is a waste of time.

What I do know is that a very large number of children I have had contact with are almost completely unable to make
the necessary conceptual leap between Scratch and languages such as LiveCode, C# and Python. So, as far as I am concerned,
while children spending some pleasurable classes having fun with Scratch is at least more creative than a large number of
activities children get up to on the computer, it is of little value if they want to learn to program computers in a way that does
more than anything Scratch has to offer, and of little value as an entry-level learning tool for programming.

But I am sufficiently retro that I am not obsessed with the idea that learn always has to be fun and should not involve the odd
spot of hard work.

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