Critical mass

[FourthWorld]

Moderation note: MaxV has kindly established the theme of this thread in his opening post, "What do you suggest to promote Livecode?"

This is a valuable topic which can benefit everyone, so let's please honor Max's theme by staying on-topic.

If you feel any posts here or elsewhere in the forums are inappropriate, or disagree with any moderation actions taken in the forums, the appropriate ways to handling those are described in the "Conflict Resolution" section of RunRev's Forum Guidelines:
http://forums.runrev.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18885

If we keep this conversation friendly and productive we can explore many valuable way to improve LiveCode's reach in the community it serves.

Thanks for considering this.

[amthonyblack]

Moderation note: MaxV has kindly established the theme of this thread in his opening post, "What do you suggest to promote Livecode?"

This is a valuable topic which can benefit everyone, so let's please honor Max's theme by staying on-topic..

The title of this thread is critical mass. The question in the poll is "how to achieve critical mass"? the options in the poll indicate the word "other" and some of the choices indicate things related to that end. Implicit in that term combined with the questions is what would allow Livecode to hit critical mass. As such the general discussion IS on topic. the one mention of moderation back several post does not make the entire discussion or even the last few posts off topic .

totally unrelated to moderation hyper defensiveness will do the opposite of achieving critical mass. it will end up creating negative press. People push back at fanboy approaches. Livecode is open source now. Its community has as much to do with it reaching critical mass as does the company. Actually in open source projects even more.

take this into condsideration Richard - if you really care about livecode.

[jacque]

I've searched high and low. I have told a few people that I WANT livecode to be in my tool kit because as a relatively new programmer I like the language but pointing out that the examples are few and far between

It's a catch 22 for some of us. I've done high-level commercial LiveCode work with clients whose names you'd recognize, but I'm under strict NDAs on all of those projects. And most of the professional LiveCode developers I know are in a similar situation, we just can't talk about what we've done. I wish I could, because my web site would be far more impressive if I could post images and descriptions of some of those projects.

So when the 1001 site asked me for some examples, I gave them a couple of minor utilities I use myself. They aren't impressive, they're actually very simple, and they are for development use. They haven't got an impressive UI. They're just tools. Originally that site was set up for exactly that sort of thing, but when people started submitting fully functional apps, they contacted me and asked me to do the same, but I couldn't. You won't see any of my work there, or anywhere else.

I know LiveCode developers who have done some extremely impressive things. One wrote an app contracted by PBS for a well-known TV show. Another is using LiveCode to run the displays at a reknowned museum. Another is running lights and stage equipment for a theater. I wrote an app that is managing the library system in Australia for the indigenous peoples there. Right now I'm working on a huge project that is distributed across the country to major universities. Another project is for a major organization I can't mention but who you'd know. The list goes on, but the point is, most of the examples you are likely to find online are not commercial projects. There are, however, a number of apps in both the Apple and Amazon/Google app stores. The problem is, they don't advertise themselves as LiveCode apps. They look professional and they sell. Some of those are posted to this forums' Announcement board, but not all of them.

Finally, only a few of the commerical developers visit this forum. Most of them are on the mailing list, which goes back much longer than these forums. The forums tend to attract new LiveCoders and address more basic issues; the mailing list tends to contain mostly the more experienced coders, simply by virtue of the fact that it's been around forever and that's all we used to have, so that's where they are. Since fewer of those people ever read the forums, they probably won't even see this thread or know that anyone would like to hear about their work.

So, I hope you won't assume that just because you can't find examples, that they don't exist. I wish I could show you what I've done, and I'm pretty sure other developers feel the same way because when you write something major, you want to show it off. But we'd be out of work if we did.

However, another place to look is Scott Rossi's site: http://tactilemedia.com. He's done work for some very impressive corporate customers. You won't find those on his site, but you will see some incredible UIs and a lot of small examples of tools and games he's written that show off LiveCode to good advantage, even though they don't meet your criteria exactly.

[FourthWorld]

Moderation note: MaxV has kindly established the theme of this thread in his opening post, "What do you suggest to promote Livecode?"

This is a valuable topic which can benefit everyone, so let's please honor Max's theme by staying on-topic..

The title of this thread is critical mass. The question in the poll is "how to achieve critical mass"? the options in the poll indicate the word "other" and some of the choices indicate things related to that end. Implicit in that term combined with the questions is what would allow Livecode to hit critical mass. As such the general discussion IS on topic. the one mention of moderation back several post does not make the entire discussion or even the last few posts off topic .

I fully agree, and appreciate your participation in this thread along those lines.

No moderation action has been taken, just a reminder of the Forum Guidelines and my best attempt to write a polite request that we continue to honor MaxV's theme here.

RunRev strives to create a friendly, respectful environment that invites participation. This thread is an important one that can benefit us all, and I look forward to more of your contributions on productive ways RunRev and the community can support the goal MaxV identified.

[amthonyblack]

So, I hope you won't assume that just because you can't find examples, that they don't exist. I wish I could show you what I've done, and I'm pretty sure other developers feel the same way because when you write something major, you want to show it off. But we'd be out of work if we did.

thanks Jacque. I understand your situation.

However, another place to look is Scott Rossi's site: http://tactilemedia.com.

Nice!!! are those apps I see all done in livecode?? On topic perhaps putting together a page where the best examples can be seen would be a great fix to that situation (even a free commercial license thrown in). it would encourage people who are not announcing their apps were made with livecode to step forward to get the recognition and traffic.

the tendency still is to think that by this time commercial apps sold to the public would have more examples so its best to address that.

[FourthWorld]

It's a catch 22 for some of us. I've done high-level commercial LiveCode work with clients whose names you'd recognize, but I'm under strict NDAs on all of those projects. And most of the professional LiveCode developers I know are in a similar situation, we just can't talk about what we've done.

That's happened with me as well. I have at least two clients who consider LiveCode their "secret weapon" - or at least they used to: now that LC is open source the cat's out of the bag. Both of those clients were VIP contributors to the Kickstarter campaign, so of course they recognize the long-term value to their projects. But sometimes they yearn for the days when no one else knew what it was, when it was a competitive advantage they had to themselves.

I've heard this from many other contract developers as well, which may help explain why some of the current crop of examples are not always the most well-funded projects.

[amthonyblack]

No moderation action has been taken, just a reminder of the Forum Guidelines and my best attempt to write a polite request that we continue to honor MaxV's theme here.

Thank you but I run two forums. I would know if moderation action has been taken. How can it be missed?. I also know based on that experience that my mods only interject things likE that in a thread when they want to throw their weight around. I encourage either taking action which they are free to do or dealing with it privately because yes it does tend to derail the thread especially when ego or hurt feelings are involved on the modertaors side.

[jacque]

Nice!!! are those apps I see all done in livecode??

Some were, some weren't, but I'm not sure which. I do know that Scott used to work in several languages in the past but that now he's primarily focused on LiveCode. The best place to see LiveCode-only work on his site is the tutorials section but I see he's got that under construction right now, so give it some time and take a look later. His stuff is gorgeous and even his little tools are professionally designed. I don't think he knows how to make something ugly.

[FourthWorld]

Nice!!! are those apps I see all done in livecode??

I believe they are, or at least most of them. If you find them inspiring check out the windowshape stack property - one of the seldom-used by very interesting features of LC is its ability to define custom window shapes with just a single property setting.

I just double-checked and it seems that some of Scott Rossi's and other examples that used to be on the LC site are no longer easily found.

I'll run this past the RunRev team to see what they can do to get those back. Thanks for your enthusiasm for Rossi's work - it was a great reminder of some of the best examples in the community.

[amthonyblack]

Some were, some weren't, but I'm not sure which..

Bummer...You had me excited there but my search will continue. This does however underline the problem.

[jacque]

I think you can remain excited. Obviously the one that says "in Flash" isn't LiveCode, and the icons had to have been done as images. But Scott has been working pretty exclusively in LiveCode for years now and if the examples aren't marked differently I think it's safe to assume they are LiveCode.

[richmond62]

If people had read my "Offensive" message carefully they would have seen this:

"Reading it, initially, I felt a bit offended; but, then on further
thought I wondered if at least
some of it might be true.

I mean the bit about hiding our lights under bushels."

'amthony' says quite a few really important things, but suffers from a severe lack of appropriate pragmatics (and, Hey, I should know), so it all "comes out wrong".

The RunRev website IS awful; plain awful and if that is not calling a spade a spade I don't know what is) in terms of navigation and user-friendliness:
somebody needs to have a quick course in usability theory (c.f. Donald Norman et al).

Buried deep in the RunRev website there are buckets of goodies; but one needs "a bucket, a spade and a hand-grenade" (to pay homage to WW2 sappers)
to find them; and after a while it hardly seems worth the effort.

LC_gadfly.png

[amthonyblack]

'amthony' says quite a few really important things, but suffers from a severe lack of appropriate pragmatics (and, Hey, I should know), so it all "comes out wrong".

That assumes that you get to arrogantly determine what is right in what I wish or intend to communicate and you don't get that vote. Until we evolve to read minds the sole determiner of what is intended to be communicated is the speaker or the writer. Apply some basic logic. As such I can pronounce you certainly wrong - it all came out precisely how I wished it to with no apologies. Sans the reference to moderation there is nothing for a mature adult to get offended over. It calls no names but yes it reflects a tone based on past experiences of having asked similar questions and getting precisely this kind of response. I Don't complain now about tone given the put down tone of your message that was uncalled for - just desserts

If reading my first post "bit offended" you then I would submit your suffer from the very fanboyism to which I referred. its a piece of software neither your first born or your wife and if I presume wrong about that intimate relationship I stand corrected. Livecode will be judged as all open source software is - in large part by the community and some you with your abrasiveness toward any criticism (or in this case even presumed criticism) even from someone showing clear interest serve it poorly. Rather than propel it to critical mass in a world already full of PHP, javascript, ruby, C, java, python xojo , tidesk alternatives your severe backwardness will leave it stuck in the same backwaters.

Why such defensiveness because I ask where the impressive apps are? An open source community with an inferiority complex (where most hyper defensiveness comes from) is not a good sign. Progressive communities with a confidence about where they are heading and their future finds it easy to talk about present drawbacks. Sorry but the defensiveness when I ask where the great apps are seems to suggest you don't think you have any . Thats not my fault. At least others think they do.

[sefrojones]

I chose "other", because (this is just my opinion) I feel that livecode has a lack of documentation for people who have no idea what hypercard was. Being so foreign from what most people are used to is a major obstacle to a higher rate of adoption. We all know Livecode is great, but I'd be willing to bet that a majority of us were already fluent in xTalk programming. The website is not good, as many of you have already pointed out, and the documentation is sparse, outdated, or hard to find. I do love seeing these new books come out, which helps to fill the void, but we're not there yet. Personally, I think Livecode is great. I have started a list of livecode resources for a friend, whom I am introducing to livecode I have put my (short) list here:

http://piratepad.be/p/LiveCode_Resource_Collection

This is a public document, which anyone is free to add to or edit. I would love it if anyone here had any more links to livecode relevant info to add to this list.

[bangkok]

Documentation ?

Documentation is not perfect without the "power of example".

Go back in time... When you knew nothing about HyperCard / Metacard / Runrev / Livecode...

Did you start to read a "book" ?

Of course of not (only a small number of people are learning like this).

Instead, you created a stack, you looked at others, how they were done etc.

For instance, If I say to a newbie : "with the datagrid object, you can do everything, many things, they are amazing"... i'm not sure he would understand.

Instead, it's better to show him. He has to see. A show case. A stack with several grids, using drag and drop, buttons, customized behavior etc.

I've tried to do it :
http://forums.runrev.com/viewtopic.php? ... 540#p78299

I think RunRev should work on those "show case" stacks.