To those looking for programmers: Word of Warning!

[FourthWorld]

If it were a legal matter there are venues for resolving such things, and this is not one of them.

For myself it's not so much a legal question, but one of manners: It's simply bad form to air what may or may not be another's dirty laundry without the poster even showing the integrity to share his own name.

Why would a person who feels compelled to share so much about someone else feel the need to conceal his own identity?

Project management and contract law are complex subjects. It seems unlikely the details of this matter were simple.

Fortunately, all that's under the rug; Bodape has since apologized.

[InfoCentral]

Why would a person who feels compelled to share so much about someone else feel the need to conceal his own identity?

The answer to this question is just too obvious. The only reason way he was able to conceal his identity is because the person who could have easily revealed it appears to have been disengaged. I have read quite a few posts from people coming to the rescue speculating and censoring but I have read absolutely no denials of the facts presented. The knife cuts both ways. His identity could has easily been revealed too by the other party.

[FourthWorld]

One of the distinguishing factors which have contributed to the ascension of the US beyond other former colonies is that the legal system in the States has at its core the principle of presumed innocence. In all legal respects, we are obliged to consider every citizen innocent until their guilt has been proven in court. And being an imperfect system, sometimes even the court fails, "proving" guilt where there is none (see http://www.wm3.org and the many stories in the news about post-incarceration acquittals).

In this thread we not only have no proof, but we have didn't even have any evidence presented at all.

All we had was an anonymous poster typing.

If I were so inclined, I could just as easily type similar words about you, and you of me, and in the complete absence of any evidence it would all be as meaningful as what we've seen in this thread.

Another important principle of the US legal system is the requirement that the accuser's identity be known. We call court proceedings "hearings" because they are the opportunity for people to stand up and be heard, and to be publicly accountable for their words.

Anonymity is the enemy of accountability.

Accusations are not proof. They aren't even evidence. They're just hearsay.

And anonymous accusations are, as Bodape acknowledged with his apology, simply not how things are done among gentlemen.

The things we don't know about this case far outnumber the things we do, and it can't be stressed enough that we don't truly *know* anything here since all we have are allegations.

Missing from the allegations here are the terms and conditions of the agreement, the details of the work and payments as they progressed, any extenuating circumstances like force majeure, including personal illness or injury, or other factors which can reasonably affect delivery timelines.

Like I said, project management and contract law are complex subjects. It would be presumptuous to assume guilt without knowing all of the details, and the height of presumption to assume guilt in the complete absence of any evidence.

But this forum is not a court, and it certainly isn't a place for random anonymous accusations. There are more productive venues for resolving contract disputes, and I would prefer to see this forum focus on helping its members learn how to use Rev more effectively.

[InfoCentral]

... and I would prefer to see this forum focus on helping its members learn how to use Rev more effectively.

Even more obvious assumptions....

The reason why the rage was voiced here on this forum was because the recommendations and point of contact originated from this forum. I can see perfectly well why he would go here to tell his story. What was surprising to me, and probably him as well, was that nobody was sympathetic to his losses. If you all knew the other guy then why didn't someone say they would talk to him and see if something can be worked out. No, it was in business these things happen and you should be silent and not say a word about who did it to you. I just don't get the attitude.

Now, as you have pointed out, I don't know particulars but then again either did the others that have voiced their opinions on this thread. The difference appears that given the same information I sympathize with the victim.

[Mark]

Perhaps it would be an idea to close this thread?

Mark

[FourthWorld]

That may be a good suggestion, Mark. I'll leave it to the others here to decide, and I'll act on whatever consensus is arrived at.

I had hoped this could become a useful discussion of conflict resolution in general, and I still believe it can be. But thus far fewer than half the posts have shown an interest in that.

[bn]

I agree with Mark that this thread should be closed. It is very difficult to draw general conclusions from this thread since the ones who know dont participate and the ones that could participate don't know. And in my opinion what can be said has been said.
regards
Bernd

[jConnor]

I don't think the thread originally titled "To those looking for programmers: Word of Warning!" should be closed.

There is some value along the lines of "checks and balances."

As a developer myself there are many valid reasons why a deadline could be missed. Sometimes this is because of fuzzy requirements which points right back to the customer. So the customer isn't always right and sometimes you have to let them go...moreover, I think Bodape's disclosure of the contractor's name was inappropriate, although he's already apologized.

With that said, I find it INEXCUSABLE to take somebody's money and then go silent, even after the posting. It's selfish and affects other developers here.

Like InfoCentral, I was also surprised that nobody showed any sympathy for the customer and focused on defending the developer and attacking the angry customer, as opposed to encouraging the former to set things right --or even turn this into "an opportunity."

Bodape, there are plenty of reputable developers out there, many are right here in this forum. They will go the extra mile to earn your business. If your budget is low, RunRev is already half the right decision. Do your homework, get recommendations and multiple bids. See previous work. Understand well what you want beforehand.

BTW, I chose to disclose my name, but it is not uncommon to use pseudo-names, so I really don't get the fuzz about Bodape's. With all due respect, I do find this forum a bit too close for comfort. I hope that the silent majority can be allowed to feel free to express their opinions without feeling shut down by the dominant few.

/John

[FourthWorld]

I don't think the thread originally titled "To those looking for programmers: Word of Warning!" should be closed.

I appreciate your saying so, and have merged your post into the main thread.

In the future, if you disagree with a moderator's decision to close a thread please write to the moderator with your request rather than continuing the thread under a new name. It saves the moderator a little extra work. Thanks.

There is some value along the lines of "checks and balances."

Agreed, which is why I was in favor of keeping it open until the only two responses I got were to close it. I appreciate yours, and have reopened the thread.

Here were have an opportunity to explore these "checks and balances":

As a developer myself there are many valid reasons why a deadline could be missed. Sometimes this is because of fuzzy requirements which points right back to the customer. So the customer isn't always right and sometimes you have to let them go...moreover, I think Bodape's disclosure of the contractor's name was inappropriate, although he's already apologized.

With that said, I find it INEXCUSABLE to take somebody's money and then go silent, even after the posting. It's selfish and affects other developers here.

Assuming, of course, that's what actually happened.

The caveats you listed are reasonable and may indeed be relevant in this case. There may be many more such details that can affect project outcomes as well.

I think we all agree that taking money and disappearing wouldn't be right. But given that no evidence of any kind has been provided, we have no way to know that's actually what happened.

You could make the same unsbustantiated character assasination about me, and I of you, and both of us of Klaus, and all those words would have equal merit.

Not everything you read on the Internet is true.

Some of it may be. Some of may not be. There's simply no way to know how much of the claims written here are true, and based on what has been presented it seems highly likely there are relevant details, like the ones you noted and possibly more, that have not been disclosed here.

Like InfoCentral, I was also surprised that nobody showed any sympathy for the customer and focused on defending the developer and attacking the angry customer, as opposed to encouraging the former to set things right --or even turn this into "an opportunity."

Speaking only for myself, I have no opinion about the claims made by "Bodape" other than noting that they are anonymous and unsubstantiated, and the implications of such choices.

Have you ever seen the Twilight Zone episode "The Monsters are Due on Maple Street"? It's a good one, worth enjoying in its own right and a useful reminder about moments like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJyaBxYjWcQ

BTW, I chose to disclose my name, but it is not uncommon to use pseudo-names, so I really don't get the fuzz about Bodape's. With all due respect, I do find this forum a bit too close for comfort. I hope that the silent majority can be allowed to feel free to express their opinions without feeling shut down by the dominant few.

Me too.

Using handles on the web is common and useful. This forum is pretty much like most others: some folks know each other well, others are meeting for the first time; some use a handle, some use their name. It's all good. All members here are free to choose these things for themselves.

If someone chooses to be anonymous I see no harm in that at all - unless they're posting disparaging comments about another person and use that person's name. Had the anonymous poster granted the same anonymity to his subject the responses here would have been very different, as even Bodape himself has acknowledged.

Fortunately such circumstances are rare, and I hope it stays that way.

FWIW, as far as I can tell "Bodape" has not posted before this thread or since, and it seems the person named there hasn't visited the forums since before this thread was started. We may never know the details that would be necessary for any of us to form a worthwhile opinion on the specific issue presented.

So to avoid becoming the monsters on Maple Street, I see a more productive future for this thread in focusing on the broader scope of client/contractor conflicts in general, such as:

- How can such conflict be avoided?

- How can conflict best be resolved once it occurs?

- How should we handle scope changes?

- How should we handle personal injury, illness, natural disasters, or other force majeure that might affect delivery timelines?

- Who pays for increased costs due to bugs in Rev, the OS, drivers, or some other component beyond the control of the client or the contractor?

- How can we ensure email doesn't get trapped in spam filters?

- Should projects always have a written agreement?

These and many other related topics seem well worth exploring here.

[jConnor]

Fourthworld,

I interpret that you agree these discussions can be focused on principle, as opposed to "what actually happened." I appreciate your reopening the thread and I'm sure many readers will appreciate it too, even if they don't actively participate.

In the future, if you disagree with a moderator's decision to close a thread please write to the moderator with your request rather than continuing the thread under a new name. It saves the moderator a little extra work. Thanks.

You're right. This is my leap from a readership. Note taken.

...unless they're posting disparaging comments about another person and use that person's name. Had the anonymous poster granted the same anonymity to his subject the responses here would have been very different, as even Bodape himself has acknowledged.

Yes, I believe this was a clear violation of the forum's User Agreement. I'm glad you removed the name

I actually watched the Twilight Zone flick you sent. If what you are deriving from it is more than people going after others' throats, please clarify...

Rgds,
/john

[FourthWorld]

I actually watched the Twilight Zone flick you sent. If what you are deriving from it is more than people going after others' throats, please clarify...

No, that's pretty much it. But it is a great episode, isn't it?
Man, TZ had some real gems...