Open Source Challenge -- Modernize LC IDE UI.

[bhall2001]

I just fired up LC8 for the first time. Yes, I know, I'm late to the game but I needed to focus on the current version and not anything new until now.

I'm miffed as to why the parts of the IDE and support stacks are circa mid-1990s. Amazing. I thought for sure EASY updates to the UI would of been done for the major version number upgrade. My perception of easy? FONT SIZES!

I have found that there is a basic font/header changer which brings limited capability but appears to default to Small. I'd rather see the default be Large but I'll settle on Medium so at least we are at the 15" screen decade.

I'd love to tackle the Preferences Dialog in the IDE and fix these font sizes. I know we don't go there often but a none LC coder is likely to directly there to see what they can mess around with and see the UI is circa 1995.

Is it possible in the Open Source version to modify the Preferences Dialog to change the font sizes? I just don't know and have put my "real" coding skills away many years ago for more practical LC style coding. I'm willing to dig into this. Anyone else?

Who's in?
Bob

[FourthWorld]

Which OS are you using?

[bn]

Hi Bob,

when you look at the IDE in detail (as far as stack and widgets is concerned which make the IDE) then you will notice that compared to LC7 a lot has changed. LC 8 now mostly uses script-only stack and widgets to make the IDE.

That means the IDE components are in transition and are not really finished yet. On the other hand once the transition is done it will be a lot easier to contribute/change the IDE than now.

I would wait until this transition settles and changes to the IDE wil be a lot easier then.

KInd regards
Bernd

[bhall2001]

I'm using Mac OS 10.10.5.

I did poke around quite a bit today and do agree that waiting for the dust to settle is probably a good option. My first stop this AM after posting was the Resource Center.

Can we please have a Moratorium against using any font less than 12 for text that is intended to be read on a computer screen? On my system (noted above), if I was evaluating Livecode, I'd stop right there and go back to whatever it was I came from. This stack just looks horrible

Crap, now I sound like I'm one of those guys who hates LC. I don't. I was just shocked at how "legacy" the Resource Center looked.

I honestly think the font sizes in the Prefs dialog are just too small (on a Mac). My guess is we have Helvetica 11? How about 13? My suspect that will get a lot of push back so how about 12?

It looks to me like Xcode and Xojo are probably using a 13 point in their prefs dialog (apps only used as reference as these are installed on the machine I'm sitting at right now).

So where do we start. It's just a simple font size change, right? If only I knew where to look...
Bob

[FourthWorld]

Can we please have a Moratorium against using any font less than 12 for text that is intended to be read on a computer screen?

I'd second that.

In fact, I wrote a plugin for myself called Ubuntify which bumps up the revMenuBar font size, along with changing it to the Ubuntu system font and changing the colors to match Ubuntu. It doesn't go as far as changing anything else in the IDE, but at least the most visible palette looks a little more like it belongs on the host OS.

Crap, now I sound like I'm one of those guys who hates LC. I don't. I was just shocked at how "legacy" the Resource Center looked.

On the contrary, I think that sort of observation is valuable. For every post like yours there are a hundred people who have the same reaction but don't post - they just uninstall LiveCode and move on. Refining the UX is an ongoing and important process.

So where do we start. It's just a simple font size change, right? If only I knew where to look...

In some cases you can set the textSize of the mainstack and all substacks will inherit that. If that property has been set anywhere down the chain (substack, card, or control) you'll need to set that by itself.

[SparkOut]

On a laptop screen with its lack of real estate, and which is situated right in front of me not a squinty distance away, I'd like to keep smaller font sizes to be able to see more onscreen. So don't forget the flipside.
I'd definitely like more transparency in the ide stack settings. No matter where I delve I can't find where whatever it is that makes the script editor open too low and partially offscreen at the bottom (Windows). And preferences are not adhered to, application browser sometimes opens in a different place, and the number of times a window (eg script editor or dictionary) opens off the screen completely is not funny any more.

[livecodeali]

the number of times a window (eg script editor or dictionary) opens off the screen completely is not funny any more.

Are you seeing this in 8.0 DP 5 or just generally? I only ask because I spent some time fixing these issues for DP 5 (causing a number of 'second monitor' bugs!)

[bhall2001]

Bigger font does not necessarily mean more screen real estate. In fact, bigger font means less brain power to get the point across...

So I had a little fun with Livecode and created a POC of the existing Prefs dialog in 13pt Helvetica. I've attached a screen print here for everyone to look at (I hope).

The size of the Dialog box DID NOT CHANGE.
All fonts are 13 point.
The only visual elements that will need to be moved are the radio buttons for start up options. They all had to be shifted left to get them to fit in the existing prefs dialog size. Heck, I'd be OK with having these at a smaller size if it's too hard to do.
John Sculley called and he wanted back his bulleted list...
The General tab posses the only potential argument to changing the size of the existing Dialog box size if fonts go to 13pt. Personally, I think the dialog can stay the same size.

Have a look and let me know what you think. Open up the existing prefs and put this graphic right next to it.

Personally I like it. What do you think?
Bob

[SparkOut]

@livecodeali
I can't give any real feedback about LC 8 yet, as I have had too many things to keep on the boil in 7, and haven't risked doing any actual "work" in 8. I haven't even got to downloading DP 5 yet, although I am keen to try with some safe "play" stuff. I could do with some more info on how to get my toes in the water.

[richmond62]

I'm miffed as to why the parts of the IDE and support stacks are circa mid-1990s.

Really?

What parts?

Having worked with Runtime Revolution LiveCode since 2001 it is an awful pity you didn't see the IDE for versions 1-3.

That is a general statement that you flung out there without any real backup. I'd be grateful if you could itemise bits of the IDE
you mean and illustrate your contention with screenshots of interfaces you consider vaguely 2015-ish.

[bhall2001]

LOL! I started with Hypercard in 1987, Supercard in 1988 and Metacard in 1990 (would of been sooner but I was wrapped up in a Supercard project). I've seen them all!

I will stand by my statements. There are stacks that are coming with LC8 that should not be there or are in desperate need of a UI update ASAP. There was a chance with LC8 (in my opinion) to add some lipstick and mascara to the IDE so that it doesn't look as dated as it is. I would hope that changing font sizes here and there would not break the IDE.

I am the BIGGEST proponent of Livecode going (well probably not but I do tell everyone about it that will listen). Stacks included with a development tool should be STELLAR examples of what the tool is capable of. Yes, there is a disadvantage without widgets as there are modern UI widgets that LC does not have that will need a widget.

There is a need to update UI/UX of included stacks and this is an opportunity for the Open Source Community. Come on! Livecode is open source so we can make it shine! WE should be building the stellar examples of LC8. Interested in starting a conversation on how we can make things better? I was hoping to make the fonts bigger in a dialog box but I don't think that's going to happen. Let me see if there's something else we might be able to tackle...

Happy Livecoding,
Bob

[FourthWorld]

I will stand by my statements. There are stacks that are coming with LC8 that should not be there or are in desperate need of a UI update ASAP. There was a chance with LC8 (in my opinion) to add some lipstick and mascara to the IDE so that it doesn't look as dated as it is. I would hope that changing font sizes here and there would not break the IDE.

Okay, so we know what not to do. Now the question is: what do we do instead?

I'm with you - lots of opportunity to improve the UI/UX.

It's all just stack files. Got a modified version others can evaluate, a mock-up set of stacks, or even just a sketch?

If the community wants to update the IDE we'll need to put the rubber on the road. Written descriptions are a good start, but at some point someone will need to actually build something.

[bhall2001]

I did provide the screen shot of the prefs dialog. This is a mock up with larger fonts that IMHO make this dialog look better. If I knew where to go to even make this happen I would do the work but I just don't know where to look in the source nor do I think I should be mocking around down there anyways

So let's say that I do want to work on some of the other stacks included. I find that they are usually locked and I am not able to edit the stacks in the IDE. How do I go about unlocking them so that I can work on them?

I'd like to start with the "Sample Stacks" stack. If this stack is closed source, is the data the stack gets available via an API? I could do a mock up of what I think is a more modern version of this stack but I'd like to know if the information is available somehow before digging into this.

Thanks for any help on this,
Bob

[mwieder]

Bob-

OK - now I'm confused. I thought I was following along on this discussion and you were making some good progress.
Where are you seeing locked stacks?
And where are you seeing a 'Sample Stacks' stack?
I see a 'Sample Stacks' menuItem that launches revOnline in a browser, but that's it.
Any help appreciated.