LiveCode Forums.

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:20 pm**

Hi all,

I'm posting this information because forum users often miss out on useful information available elsewhere.
Just in case some of you have missed this announcement from LC.
Read it youself here
https://livecode.com/leap-to-future/ -- see under "Staged Increases"

or read the extract below:

"To ensure a smooth transition and allow our loyal user base to benefit from their long support of LiveCode, we will be putting the price up in stages throughout the year. The first increase will be in mid-March 2016 from $499 to $599. Once you subscribe, you lock in your price at the level you subscribed, forever. So if you subscribe today at $499, then you will always be able to renew at $499 as long as your subscription remains current. If you cancel the subscription then the pricing current at the time you wish to resubscribe will apply."

"By January 2017 the price of LiveCode Indy will rise to $999, incrementally over the course of the next year. Read about LiveCode 8 and your opportunity to subscribe at today's price and lock in tomorrows increased value"

Summarizing; A year from now LC Indy will cost $999/year.

Anyone planning on locking in to current pricing needs to lock in soon.

Paul

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:51 pm**

considering how little livecode is known that price is ridiculous unless they have given up on it ever being widely used. I've had my eye on livecode but never jumped in - mainly because when I last looked at it the language was esoteric.

Within the last year Visual Studio went mostly free (community can do quite a bit) and xamarin has gone completely free. In the app builder space there are some paid solutions but they are for the most part not based on languages outside the conventional. The real reason Livecode has never caught on is because the syntax is outside the modern convention in programming. livecode does not in my opinion even teach real modern programming. IF I learn Python theres so many similar language concepts I can pick up other languages fairly easily. IF a new person picks up live code so much more of it does not translate to other languages. Frankly if my children were taught livecode in highschool I would be ticked because I would not think it gave them a solid foundation where something like python would (and in many respects is very easy to pick up). Add to that is the fact that though its an easy syntax it does NOT translate into easier mastery. Ease of learning is about more than syntax. It has more to do with amount of training resources - The web has training to accomplish almost anything you would ever want to do in Javacript, python, ruby etc.

I did at one point thin onrev had real potential to be something but LC has always kept it as a second class citizen. I guess because open source licensing or commercial matter much less on the server. this was probably short sighted because if LC on the server had ever matured and caught on consulting and custom work for the team would be a lot easier to come by than hundreds shelling out a thousand dollars to work on a mostly hobbyist language.

Anyway by putting a thousand dollar price tag on being able to use this without the limitations of the open source license LC seems to be waving the white flag and saying instead of wider adoption we are just going to hit the userbase hard in order to survive. Its probably a good strategy to survive for a while longer because developers are not going to make Live code much more widely used than it is without a rewrite of the language and yes finally throwing the whole card metaphor to the winds of the past.

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:36 pm**

david759 wrote:The real reason Livecode has never caught on is because the syntax is outside the modern convention in programming.

Au contraire, it's unique language is its raison d'être. After all, if one prefers something else why not just use that?

I appreciate that you took the time to create an account here just to make that your only post, but for those of us who use LiveCode we do so because it offers something we just don't see elsewhere.

What other system has GUI elements integrated with the core language with high-level scripting and covers as many platforms? I can find some that do one or two, but not all three.

There are hundreds of languages in the world, and new ones invented every year, because each brings something unique to the table. Seems you've chosen the ones you prefer. That's the beauty of programming in the 21st century: there are so many options to choose from everyone can have exactly what they most want.

And some of us want LiveCode. And we have it. Vive la différence.

Posted: **Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:27 pm**

FourthWorld wrote:
david759 wrote:The real reason Livecode has never caught on is because the syntax is outside the modern convention in programming.
Au contraire, it's unique language is its raison d'être. After all, if one prefers something else why not just use that?

not sure what something else you are referring to except that you must have missed the point entirely. Javascript and C have similar conventions they are not the same language anymore than Python is. copying a language and having similar conventions are entirely different matters.

I appreciate that you took the time to create an account here just to make that your only post, but for those of us who use LiveCode we do so because it offers something we just don't see elsewhere.

Unless you set up two browsers and posted your first two posts at the same time I'd be curious how you avoided your first post not being the only post until the second one was made.

What other system has GUI elements integrated with the core language with high-level scripting and covers as may platforms? I can find some that do one or two, but not all three.

Then the world should be beating down the doors shortly? If not then why not and why not before version 8? Python with Qt has more of a hope (not much but more). Far more developers seem content to jump into C# with Xamarin (now free). You do a disservice to the company and the people that use Livecode trying to sugar coat realities. IF its so awesome then why have developers no flocked to it?? If its only hobbyist how many will cough up $999 a year?

You can correct an issue you recognize but not one that you don't. Heed the advice of AA. You must admit a problem before it can be changed or you are destined to be tipsy for the rest of your life.

And some of us want LiveCode. And we have it. Vive la différence.

Apparently not enough which remains the only point and why every time I look into it the licensing prices change. I thank you for trying to answer my post but you were more answering one I never made. Never said no one used livecode I said comparatively few do. Isn't that obvious?

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:23 am**

david759 wrote:
FourthWorld wrote:
david759 wrote:The real reason Livecode has never caught on is because the syntax is outside the modern convention in programming.
Au contraire, it's unique language is its raison d'être. After all, if one prefers something else why not just use that?
not sure what something else you are referring to

You mentioned your preference for how other languages are designed. I was referring to those.

david759 wrote:
I appreciate that you took the time to create an account here just to make that your only post, but for those of us who use LiveCode we do so because it offers something we just don't see elsewhere.
Unless you set up two browsers and posted your first two posts at the same time I'd be curious how you avoided your first post not being the only post until the second one was made.

We don't often see people take the time to create an account only to complain about a language they don't use. It's rare enough to be noteworthy.

david759 wrote:
What other system has GUI elements integrated with the core language with high-level scripting and covers as may platforms? I can find some that do one or two, but not all three.
Then the world should be beating down the doors shortly? If not then why not and why not before version 8? Python with Qt has more of a hope (not much but more). Far more developers seem content to jump into C# with Xamarin (now free). You do a disservice to the company and the people that use Livecode trying to sugar coat realities.

One man's "realities" may seem to another as mere preferences.

You've said I don't understand, so help educate me. Let's take advantage of your experience running successful software development tools companies: what would you change in LiveCode that would have "the world beating down doors", and how would you integrate that with the parts you like about LiveCode?

david759 wrote:IF its so awesome then why have developers no flocked to it??

Swift seems pretty popular, no? After all, it's one of the world's hottest languages right now. Not many programming languages become front page stories in business mags, but Swift has more than once.

And yet for all the attention it gets the TIOBE index this month says only 1.4% of programmers are using it. And it's a VERY high-ranking language, which means that so many of the other great languages (Lua, Haskell, Erlang, Scheme, even Bash) have far fewer developers using them.

Look around. There are MANY programming languages. LiveCode is only one, and has only been open source for just three years. It would indeed be cool if it could take over the world in such short time, but no language ever has and I doubt even LiveCode, as nice as it is, will be the world's first.

If it's important to you that LiveCode have a larger audience, you can help make that happen by joining in with those of us who enjoy building apps with it and just let folks know how you did it.

david759 wrote:If its only hobbyist how many will cough up $999 a year?

Why would a hobbyist need to pay $999 for a proprietary license when they can use LiveCode Community Edition for free?

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:42 pm**

HI,

I have to pipe in here.

I have been programming for 40+ years now from machine code to 4GLs so Ive run the gamut of every language you can imaging COBOL , Fortran and pascal at uni, ucsd Pascal, Forth (apple 2) , Turbo Pascal (forth and Lisp just for edification) , c, c++, Modula 2, Dbase (Yuk) VB, Clipper,Foxpro on the PC.

The only ones I used for writing customer programs were UCSD Pascal,Delphi Clipper and Foxpro why?

ON an apple 2 with 64K of Ram there was no Gui I had to write everything from my "menu" system to the btree file indexing on 143k Floppies - no GUI so Pascal was fine. Turbo Pascal was fine too for utilities but if you want a customer program to look good you need a drag and drop gui-= good luck finding a good one for Python or even Ruby.

I was of the same opinion as you the syntax but guess what, I Jettisoned 25+ Years of Foxpro/Clipper experience and stuck in - most of my coding doesn't include mathematics - its the UI All you need to get used to to learn the "esoteric syntax" are three patterns

Code: Select all

      1. PUT (a + 5) into B
      2. Set the <propertyname> to <value> 
      3.  Set the backcolor of button "test" of Group "grpOptions " to "RED"  - Object access without dot notation
      4. Associative arrays[/indent][/indent]

Yes it would be nice to have structures as in Pascal (my still favourite language) but I can do that in a pinch with associative arrays and well names indexes
Yes it would be nice to allow a = 5 + 6 (save a bit of typing but not as much as the ide)
Yes .notation for objects would be nice but cut and paste is pretty fast

Everything else is NOT AT ALL different from any other languages it's learning the idioms and nuances which you have to do with any other language (visual C, Turbo C or Waterloo C) - take a look at COBOL

I have now written my application - it runs on windows, Android (I don't need the others) with with minimal changes - even the screen adapts with 1 line of code

I have another 2 applications in the first stages - all business oriented - can get it to run and look good on OSX, tablets , Linux or whatever - get over the Syntax - I loved Pascal a brilliantly readable language
but i moved to clipper and then Foxpro because of the extras that the environments gave me not because i like

Code: Select all

"store 6 to Total"

in the Dbase language although they quickly added infix notation.

I liked the fact I could modify the structure of databases with data in and no copying to and from temp files, the report writer, the drag and drop text gui in Dos, sometimes you have to burn bridges to learn to swim.

<RANT ON>
Now after the praise the kicking

I think the price rise is utterly stupid (i'm locked in so who cares eh?, well I do, my friend another die hard foxpro person was looking around and was going to purchase at the £299 or the monthly but now he will never ever ever!!!!

"Livecode is either not making money or they are money grabbing B**S after the kickstarter and making pdf viewers only" for business

- his words not mine but I have to say I can see his point

Secondly the website stinks, the marketing stinks all the broken links EVERWHERE is a joke - who is sleeping on the job in marketing?

You should be showcasing what you have for programmers who are still looking for a place to go after the vb6 debacle, the foxpro debacle, the Pythonistas without a proper Gui, the Xojo people without android deployment - yet

You have priced your way out of the market people who want to create an App for IOS but cannot without paying full wack - you should have an option for commercial for deployment on IOS or Android so if the greatest app since sliced bread doesn't sell (and most don't) they are not out by $1000.

Livecode has basically given up marketing to get more people and trying instead to lock the old guard in - I have more to say but I don't think anyone cares to be honest.

<END OF RANT>

Hello is anyone listening? - I'm not gonna hold my breath

Mark and the programming Team - if Marketing was as good as you, then Livecode would be up there with Python that's all I can say.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:16 pm**

Lagi Pittas wrote:I was of the same opinion as you the syntax but guess what, I Jettisoned 25+ Years of Foxpro/Clipper experience and stuck in - most of my coding doesn't include mathematics - its the UI All you need to get used to to learn the "esoteric syntax" are three patterns
Code: Select all
      1. PUT (a + 5) into B
      2. Set the <propertyname> to <value> 
      3.  Set the backcolor of button "test" of Group "grpOptions " to "RED"  - Object access without dot notation
      4. Associative arrays[/indent][/indent]

That's a wonderfully concise orientation. I'm bookmarking that, as I'm sure that'll come in handy as I meet others learning LiveCode as a second language.

Hello is anyone listening? - I'm not gonna hold my breath

In this user-to-user forum, the core team rarely has the luxury of setting aside the development tasks we ask them to do to follow all the threads here. More commonly, if someone has a business proposal for the company to consider, writing to them directly is the better bet. Please keep in mind that there are at least as many opinions about how their business should be run as there are people using LiveCode, some of it from people with more demonstrated business experience in this market than others. To help a business proposal get the attention it merits, it may be useful to include a summary of experience relating to successful software publishing in the development tools market, along with whatever research you may have to support the specific objectives being proposed.

For a more open-ended brainstorming, I'm here and eager to listen, but my role is a volunteer one on behalf of the contributors to the open source Community Edition, so I have no magic wand to wave over the team. That said, in this role I'm quite happy discussing specific actionable plans with the team where they have well demonstrated merit. We have regular meetings in which a part of each meeting is devoted to hearing outstanding requests from the community, to explore ways they may be put into action. Part of my role is as a sort of ombudsman, if you will, and I'm at your service.

With the web site, for example, in recent months many aspects of its taxonomy and content have been greatly overhauled, sometimes in direct response to user requests. But very few web sites are great, none are perfect, and all can be improved. What specific changes would you propose the team consider for the web site?

Similarly, marketing is an ongoing challenge for nearly every company, and there are certainly many ways LiveCode can improve their reach. Indeed, we all agree it would be nice to see LiveCode as widely used as Python, but there's one very significant advantage that Python has which LiveCode can't employ without a time machine: many decades of being open source. Given this, what would you propose as an outline for a marketing plan to move LC closer to Python's usage metrics?

I'm quite happy to discuss ideas with the team on behalf of any community member who doesn't have sufficient research to submit a business proposal directly. But for these ideas to translate into outcomes they need to be specific and actionable.

Let's see what we can come up with here that can put the rubber on the road.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:54 pm**

Hi Richard

The bit about anyone listening is NOT about the development team - its about the direction that livecode is taking in zilch marketing , zilch trying to reach out to the bread and butter developers (you and me IMHO - Desktop with mobile options)

The start screen of the website is atrocious - it conveys nothing at all - oh you can write apps - I can do it in a dozen languages - show me the banana!!

Look at the Xojo site - Livecodes Web "master" should look at the testimonials and how the front page tells you what it does - and a picture of Raspberry pi to boot- do a PROPER GOOD classy example app for IOS and Android that doesn't take "only" 3 hours like sheepherder and put that on the appstore but the sourcecode only goes with a paid subscription to either an IOS or Android only version, and indy , business - put as many useful tips and tricks to give people a start. Do a good sidescroller, do a platform game, do a simple monthly savings/expenses home app using sqlite. if it's so quick then they should be able to be knocked out in a month or 2 - without any rough edges.

For Gods sake ask/pay someone to do it. I have lots of ideas but I feel i'm P***g in the wind, PDF viewer and MVC as well - the business/enterprise option should be about the support that larger companies need - not plugins that we all need -they might as well add dot notation and infix calculations just for Business if they really want to play a game.

Stop resting on your Laurels (marketing and management - not the dev team)

Regards Lagi

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:01 pm**

FourthWorld wrote: You mentioned your preference for how other languages are designed. I was referring to those.

No I am afraid still missing it. I referred to programming conventions.

david759 wrote: We don't often see people take the time to create an account only to complain about a language they don't use. It's rare enough to be noteworthy.

it seems like its rare enough to see a post. Actually I have seen a number of posts "complaining" (called pointing out realities to the rest of the world). If you don't want prospective users to make observations you could just lock it up as a paid subscription forum (more revenue from the faithful I suppose)

david759 wrote: You've said I don't understand, so help educate me. Let's take advantage of your experience running successful software development tools companies: what would you change in LiveCode that would have "the world beating down doors", and how would you integrate that with the parts you like about LiveCode?

well for one finally break from the multi failed concept of hypercard and enter into the modern programming world. So glad you finally conceded the doors are not being beat down though...progress in any form is noteworthy

david759 wrote:IF its so awesome then why have developers no flocked to it?
Swift seems pretty popular, no? And yet for all the attention it gets the TIOBE index this month says only 1.4% of programmers are using it.

swift is waaaay ahead of livecode. You are just kidding yourself there I am afraid. Time of it becoming open source is not the origin date for Live/runrev. Now that MS went open source with much of its platform are you going to claim its only been around for a year?

Look around. There are MANY programming languages.

Precisely my point - you really should look around - and with much more options why go with livecode when if you ever want to take any hobby to a commercial endeavor (and many do at some point ) you have to shell out a thousand dollars

Why would a hobbyist need to pay $999 for a proprietary license when they can use LiveCode Community Edition for free?

[/quote]

See answer above.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:00 pm**

david759 wrote:swift is waaaay ahead of livecode. You are just kidding yourself there I am afraid. Time of it becoming open source is not the origin date for Live/runrev. Now that MS went open source with much of its platform are you going to claim its only been around for a year?

It turns out that both Apple and Microsoft are among the world's largest companies, and have been for more than three decades. That you believe LiveCode Ltd. could be compared with either seems a very flattering view of LiveCode's marketing, but I can assure the company is a bit smaller than either.

If you're in a position to get either of those companies to toss a few hundred million toward LiveCode, I'm sure Kevin would take their call.

In the meantime, the central question here remains unanswered: the broad strokes of "Things should be different!" have been fun and all, but exactly how? What specific actionable plans are you suggesting?

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:13 pm**

Lagi Pittas wrote: but if you want a customer program to look good you need a drag and drop gui-= good luck finding a good one for Python or even Ruby.

Hi Lagi - First let me thank you for your productive input. You make some decent points. GUI is one of the reasons I was looking at LC but thats obviously not been enough. You can of course make apps without a GUI however.

I was of the same opinion as you the syntax but guess what, I Jettisoned 25+ Years of Foxpro/Clipper experience and stuck in

Yeah but when ease of use and easy to learn is your mantra people should not have to "stick in" and certainly as you admit ( unlike Fourthworld still in denial) not for the reward of then having to shell out a thousand dollars for the privilege when you are ready to do something commercial with it. Why in the tarnation would I or even a newb to programming invest the time in learning and mastering am unconventional little used language when if decide to do something with it I have to spend $999?? Makes zero sense unless i just have free time to blow and/or a crystal ball to determine I will never ever have any commercial interests.

Everything else is NOT AT ALL different from any other languages it's learning the idioms and nuances which you have to do with any other language (visual C, Turbo C or Waterloo C) - take a look at COBOL

I never said everything though and I am far from the only one that has noticed developers having a harder time picking up livecode. I know Javascript, C#, Ruby and Python. haven't really found that i have had to do a mindshift with any of them. After all thats the reason why its rightfully said that if you know one programming language you can pick up others pretty quickly. Now the argument could be made well livecode is easier for the sake of having left some of those conventions but I don't find the argument compelling. Python is plenty easy and I would say easier to master because there is no end of free resources online to learn, view code for and find specific solutions.

Mark and the programming Team - if Marketing was as good as you, then Livecode would be up there with Python that's all I can say.

Open source projects have blown up with worse sites than LC. No need to blame the marketing guys for everything. What drives most languages are developers and the language itself doesn't follow the patterns that make them feel at home. Certainly LC must know that the $999 price tag to do commercial work isn't going to help that so this is a change to just milk the most out of the few that are in love. this move is the nail in the coffin for wide adoption. One of the hardest parts of choosing live code for a newb is getting examples of code to learn from. As noted before you go with python and you can accelerate your mastery far faster by the sheer amount of resources to learn and see code online for just about every scenarios. Now with hefty price tag for developers LC must know thats not going to change anytime soon.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:30 pm**

FourthWorld wrote: It turns out that both Apple and Microsoft are among the world's largest companies, and have been for more than three decades. That you believe LiveCode Ltd. could be compared with either seems a very flattering view of LiveCode's marketing, but I can assure the company is a bit smaller than either.

You must be very emotionally invested to make such sweeping statements regarding my beliefs but yet again as before are just simply wrong. You brought up Swift not me. terribly illogical to claim my responding to your comment/comparison on swift is my comparison and not your own.

If you're in a position to get either of those companies to toss a few hundred million toward LiveCode, I'm sure Kevin would take their call.

You seem emotionally rattled to have to be dripping with such sarcasm. ignoring the silliness of the proposition - why would I invest the time without the necessary changes? You do raise an interesting question though. If this is scuh a great platform with no faults and Kevin you sure would take my call why hasn't the phone rang and even tens of millions secured in backing from any source? Another dose of reality that might inform?

In the meantime, the central question here remains unanswered: the broad strokes of "Things should be different!" have been fun and all, but exactly how? What specific actionable plans are you suggesting?

I think you missed the title of the OP. the central question was around price. Still is a far as I am concerned . I've already given a broad outline (as gravy) and now you are attempting a move the goal post gambit . however If you want a detailed actionable plan you can PM me and we can discuss consultancy fees.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:42 pm**

Hi David

Yeah but when ease of use and easy to learn is your mantra people should not have to "stick in" and certainly as you admit ( unlike Fourthworld still in denial) not for the reward of then having to shell out a thousand dollars for the privilege when you are ready to do something commercial with it. Why in the tarnation would I or even a newb to programming invest the time in learning and mastering am unconventional little used language when if decide to do something with it I have to spend $999?? Makes zero sense unless i just have free time to blow and/or a crystal ball to determine I will never ever have any commercial interests.

I concur with you 100% here - if I wonder if this is a way of keeping the current subscribers in perpetuity because $1999 is much greater than $499 - Say it ain't so Joe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQveng3Wxz8

They have to have a lowercost entru non GPL version for the masses - Have the enterprise version of B4I and B4A and there is B4X (java based free and runs on all platforms) I have them just incase there is something I can't do with Livecode I have never belived 1 size fits all -

If all you have is a Hammer everything looks like a Nail

Foxpro did everything I ever needed on a desktop - When I was controlling lights and charging for a Snooker club its was Turbo Pascal I used - because I could run it on a 720K Floppy Disk - - the "Gui" was text.

When I wrote a Vpice Respnse system I used Turbo C to write a multithreaded kernel and put a Gui Wrapper around it with VB - I could have done the Gui in Foxpro but I used VB just in case!! but the case never arose - never stuck with it.

I still hope they come to their senses and do what I suggested above , with bertter available example not mickey mouse stuff. - I'm still not holding my breath.

Trust me David I was of the same opinion but now after a year of using I find that it's Damn close to my beloved Foxpro and Clipper. But it's only of use to you if you are not going to publish to IOS - I could code my programs in the open source version and not pay a penny because I've always given the source code to my Clients (and no - not for thousands - just given). Why? Because there company would be up the Swanee if I was hit by a bus .

I reiterate again they are totally wrong on the pricing - if they weren't getting enough people in at the old price they would get even fewer now - hence why I said above that this is lockin.

btw I think I have taken to it because of the event/hierarchy system which makes GUI programs easier to write, The ONLY learning curve I had was to find out what the commands and functions where - same with any language and getting used to typing put and the not dot notation - that just took acceptance not learning.

Not once was the language itself a problem except in my head - that's what I was used to - I've tried REBOL as well - very powerful but I didn't have the time or the inclination to use it for any project.

AS I say i'm still looking for a good GUI/Framework that works as well as Foxpro/Livecode so that I have a selection of Tools in my Quiver

(to mix metaphors) because I might need something that only works with Python but to be honest at the moment I would write a program in python and get it to talk to the GUI in Livecode like my c/vb voice response system - btw have I said how good the GUI and event system is is?

But if your wanting to deploy only on IOS then $999 is just not an option - I know it would not be for me if I didn't even know if my program for 79p was going to sell.

and because i saw mentioned somewhere that hypercard was a failed system ..

VisualBasic = MacBasic + Hypercard

Hypercard may not have had Apples full attention, but it certainly got Bill Gates. He saw that Apple had once again found a better way. Bill Gates had also turned Microsoft into a business of copying Apples every move on the Mac, and bringing it to the PC as innovation. Windows 3.0 was their best rip-off yet (but was still not very good), and they needed something to compete with Hypercard. Lots of animators and people creating multimedia content could do so on the Mac and script something up in a hurry. Bill needed to win.

So Microsoft create VisualBasic. It was basically the object oriented functionality of Mac Basic (added to their basic) with more of the visual elements of Hypercard. It was quick to make since MS already had the code for their Basic. Bill Gates also decided to punish Apple for competing with him (via Hypercard) and to this day will not release Visual Basic for the Mac as a slap -- even though it would be beneficial for both markets to do so. The first versions of Visual Basic were hacks and a cheap rip-off, but Bill Gates was able to market it as "innovation". Not surprisingly the PC crowd loved Apples ideas (with Bill Gates wrapping) and it became an instant success.

Apple at this time was creating AppleEvents and AppleScript so that Mac users could script any application using a universal scripting language on the Mac. Bill Gates copied this idea about 5 years later with VB for Applications -- except that Apples was a universal and publicly documented scripting model so that all Apps could work well together, and VB for Apps was proprietary and a way for MS to crush a few more competitors and constrict the PC marketplace into fewer choices (with MS being the only choice).

http://www.mackido.com/History/History_VB.html

And I know the above is true because I was an Apple Dealer many moons ago - btw the Mac Basic mentioned above was scuttled by Bill Gates because it was event driven and worked with the Mac - Bill Atkinson wrote Hypercard because of that.

Regards Lagi

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:04 pm**

david759 wrote:You must be very emotionally invested to make such sweeping statements regarding my beliefs but yet again as before are just simply wrong.

The question of emotional investment might equally apply to someone who takes the time to create an account and then post repeatedly only to complain about a language they don't like and don't even use.

It would never occur to me to post in the Python forums about how I prefer languages that are less white-space-dependent and therefore their language must change to be more "standard".

If I prefer another flavor of language I would just use it and enjoy it. I'd be too busy productively building software with it that I wouldn't have time to post in the forums of languages I have no interest in.

You brought up Swift not me. terribly illogical to claim my responding to your comment/comparison on swift is my comparison and not your own.

You may want to review your earlier posts. You very explicitly compared LiveCode to other languages that have literally many millions of investment behind them and are supported by some of the largest companies in software history.

I merely used Swift as one example of those, and a rather fair one at that since it's a relative newcomer, so the level of investment it's enjoyed is large but still likely not quite as large as the ones you listed (JavaScript, C#, Ruby, Xamarin, Python).

Moreover, if you read the rest of the post you're replying to you'll notice that I mentioned a popular language only as a relative point of reference to provide a context describing the distribution of use among the great many languages we have to choose from.

The point was apparently lost so I don't mind trying again more succinctly:

The other languages you compared LiveCode to are recipients of multi-million-dollar investments from industry leaders. As such, the comparison may be flattering to LiveCode but a poor fit for the actual challenges facing any small business offering a development tool.

why would I invest the time without the necessary changes?

That's a question no one here can answer because you've chosen not to reveal what the specific changes are that you feel are necessary.

If this is scuh a great platform with no faults...

Straw man. Not only did I never say LiveCode was without faults, on the contrary I explicitly acknowledged that all products and their marketing are imperfect and that there are many ways LiveCode can improve theirs.

I think you missed the title of the OP. the central question was around price.

It's clear you missed the body of the OP, in which he isn't complaining about the price at all, merely offering a reminder of the date for a discounted offer for LiveCode's proprietary version.

Still is a far as I am concerned . I've already given a broad outline (as gravy) and now you are attempting a move the goal post gambit.

I've been merely trying to encourage you to define the goal post. Several complaints and a few ad hominems later, you still haven't shared any specific actionable request.

however If you want a detailed actionable plan you can PM me and we can discuss consultancy fees.

I haven't seen an RFP for such services in this thread or elsewhere in the forums.

If you want to offer suggestions for change, you may find it more effective to describe what those changes are.

If instead you're using this thread to solicit a consulting contract, you can submit your proposal to support AT livecode.com along with an outline of your demonstrated successes in the software development tools market, and it will be forwarded to the appropriate team member.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:32 pm**

Lagi Pittas wrote:
VisualBasic = MacBasic + Hypercard

Hypercard may not have had Apples full attention, but it certainly got Bill Gates. He saw that Apple had once again found a better way. Bill Gates had also turned Microsoft into a business of copying Apples every move on the Mac, and bringing it to the PC as innovation. Windows 3.0 was their best rip-off yet (but was still not very good), and they needed something to compete with Hypercard. Lots of animators and people creating multimedia content could do so on the Mac and script something up in a hurry. Bill needed to win.

So Microsoft create VisualBasic. It was basically the object oriented functionality of Mac Basic (added to their basic) with more of the visual elements of Hypercard. It was quick to make since MS already had the code for their Basic. Bill Gates also decided to punish Apple for competing with him (via Hypercard) and to this day will not release Visual Basic for the Mac as a slap -- even though it would be beneficial for both markets to do so. The first versions of Visual Basic were hacks and a cheap rip-off, but Bill Gates was able to market it as "innovation". Not surprisingly the PC crowd loved Apples ideas (with Bill Gates wrapping) and it became an instant success.

Apple at this time was creating AppleEvents and AppleScript so that Mac users could script any application using a universal scripting language on the Mac. Bill Gates copied this idea about 5 years later with VB for Applications -- except that Apples was a universal and publicly documented scripting model so that all Apps could work well together, and VB for Apps was proprietary and a way for MS to crush a few more competitors and constrict the PC marketplace into fewer choices (with MS being the only choice).
http://www.mackido.com/History/History_VB.html

And I know the above is true because I was an Apple Dealer many moons ago - btw the Mac Basic mentioned above was scuttled by Bill Gates because it was event driven and worked with the Mac - Bill Atkinson wrote Hypercard because of that.

Good bit of history, Lagi. Thanks for that.

FWIW, I was once told by someone who worked at Microsoft at the time that the first version of Visual Basic was prototyped on a Mac in SuperCard.

For all the flattering imitation of xTalk that Microsoft indulged in, there was one thing they got very right: continued investment in a high-level GUI scripting system as a means of expanding their OS's app ecosystem.

The amount of money they spent marketing VB and partnering with third-parties to build components for it was staggering, while Apple just killed off HyperTalk, QT3 that would have made HyperTalk cross-platform, and for nearly two decades had no higher level language than Objective-C to offer its developers.

Swift now begins to change that. It's a fine language from the same mind that created LLVM, and has many good ideas in it. Since Mac and iOS development with it is heavily tied to the Cocoa framework which is not being open sourced, it'll be interesting to see what sorts of x-plat frameworks eventually come up around it. But I suspect it'll continue to do well over the coming years, perhaps reaching as high as 2% of developers (an ambitious goal given the distribution of language use, but I think achievable for that one).

LiveCode Forums.

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