DevGuides

Interested in using the many environmental add-ons and extensions from LiveCode and third parties to the flexible LiveCode environment? This is the place to talk about it.

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andresdt
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DevGuides

Post by andresdt » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:18 am

Hello livecodes!
We've long wanted the liveCode IDE to look more like what WE see in other modern IDEs. So in our spare time we start to see what we can do to improve the tool we love.

Here we share an extension that draws guide lines to help us accommodate our interface elements.

Here is a link to a video showing what the extension does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Li2fntDXbE

Here is the link to the repository on GitHub.
https://github.com/Ferruslogic/DevGuides/releases
Last edited by andresdt on Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

stam
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Re: DevGuides

Post by stam » Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:59 pm

Hi @andresdt, that looks really good!

I’ve been using Bernd’s bnGuides which does a similar thing but have encountered multiple errors when groups are selected (or edited). Any such issues to consider here?

Ultimately choice is good for the rest of us :)
Look forward to putting it through its paces….

stam
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Re: DevGuides

Post by stam » Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:59 pm

Hi @andresdt,

further to this i had a quick test and compared with bnGuides.

I'm not sure i could entirely get it to do what i wanted it to do.

in this example it would not let me align the middle field, when editing this group:
devGuides.jpg
As you can see, the 'firstName' field is being aligned below the surname field, which isn't great...


whereas with bnGuides (in either of its modes in screenshots below) it worked fine:
bnGuides.jpg
bnGuide2.jpg
On the other hand i haven't so far had any of the errors i've occasionally seen with bnGuides.
Will watch this space with interest!
Stam

richmond62
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Re: DevGuides

Post by richmond62 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:50 pm

We've long wanted the liveCode IDE to look more like what we see in other modern IDEs.
Who are "We"?

This is either:

1. A gross arrogation of other people's feelings about the LiveCode IDE.

I, for one, DO NOT want the LiveCode IDE to look like what "we" see in other modern IDES: I like the LC IDE just exactly as it is.

2. A reference to an ill-defined group of people.

3. An adoption of some 'royal' first person plural pronoun.

prometheus
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Re: DevGuides

Post by prometheus » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:28 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:50 pm
We've long wanted the liveCode IDE to look more like what we see in other modern IDEs.
Who are "We"?

This is either:

1. A gross arrogation of other people's feelings about the LiveCode IDE.

I, for one, DO NOT want the LiveCode IDE to look like what "we" see in other modern IDES: I like the LC IDE just exactly as it is.

2. A reference to an ill-defined group of people.

3. An adoption of some 'royal' first person plural pronoun.


I am very sure that the author's intention was not to offend you or anyone else.

However, I do not see the reason for your comment, since I am sure it is the feeling of many developers that despite the fact that we love Livecode we are very saddened to see IDEs and languages that leave much to be desired to achieve a better popularity than LC, also in many occasions I have thought for example: "if LC had guidelines to avoid having to go to the inspector to align a couple of controls ...".
Maybe the author and I are the only ones who see it this way and we are just "gross arrogants". So since he is my friend I will ask him to change that "we" that worries you so much.

stam
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Re: DevGuides

Post by stam » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:01 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:50 pm
We've long wanted the liveCode IDE to look more like what we see in other modern IDEs.
Who are "We"?

This is either:

1. A gross arrogation of other people's feelings about the LiveCode IDE.

I, for one, DO NOT want the LiveCode IDE to look like what "we" see in other modern IDES: I like the LC IDE just exactly as it is.

2. A reference to an ill-defined group of people.

3. An adoption of some 'royal' first person plural pronoun.
Is there really a reason for such a caustic, arrogant and offensive response to someone who is providing functionality for developers for free?

It's evident to anyone with basic reading comprehension, that the "we" in the above statement refers to the developers.
As in, WE as the developers have wanted this, so they offer an implementation you can download if you want.

Yes we get it, you like banging rocks together. Others prefer to use visual guides to align objects.
There is truly no cause for your response - if you don't want it then don't use it.
End of story.

You are just being rude for the sake of it.

richmond62
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Re: DevGuides

Post by richmond62 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:07 pm

we are very saddened
There you go again. 8)

Why not set up a survey here on the forums to see what people think about the current IDE and whether it needs to
be improved / changed?

AND, not one of those daft surveys with stuff on a scale of 1 to 10 that end up being largely meaningless,
but with set of alternative IDES tht people can look at and play with and state what they feel: put your money where your mouth is; create those IDEs and IDE modifications and see if people go, "Yeah, groovy baby, let's go for it", "Yeah, groovy baby, but far, far too freaky for good old conservative me", or "Scramble my eggs and call me Ross Perot, but no, no, not in a thousand years on mescaline."

Perhaps this is the right place to point out that Kevin Miller started what is now called LiveCode because he did not like
the MetaCard IDE. Eventually he did a "Victor Kiam" and bought the company (err, and here's chance for Kevin to wade in and get his boots mucky,
or the company just gave him everything).

There is no earthly reason why a clever bunch of LiveCode programmers could not get together and build an alternative IDE.

I have, over the last 20 years, mucked around with the IDE several times as a trawl through the forums will show you,
and some people have actually used some of my "shit" for a bit.

Every time I have mucked around with the IDE all it has taught me is that the current IDE is a bit like democracy:
there is a feeling that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
Last edited by richmond62 on Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

richmond62
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Re: DevGuides

Post by richmond62 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:08 pm

caustic, arrogant and offensive response
Woke.

The "We" came across as fairly "caustic, arrogant and offensive", so 'tit for tat' my old fruit. :D
I am very sure that the author's intention was not to offend you or anyone else.
I am sure it wasn't, and I wasn't offended: but it did look extremely all-encompassing and gave an impression
that everyone was dissatisfied with the current LiveCode IDE.
we love Livecode we are very saddened to see IDEs and languages that leave much to be desired to achieve a better popularity than LC
Absolutely: but how on earth do you know the reason you give is the sole reason there has not been a greater uptake of LiveCode?

Over the last 7 years I have taught LiveCode to children between 8 and 17 years of age, and they have demonstrated it to teachers
in their schools who have been impressed and amazed by how quickly children can get "up-and-running" in LiveCode, and very
many of those teachers have stated that they would love to teach LiveCode in state schools but their hands are tied by the Ministry
of Education. This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with LiveCode's IDE, but a lot to do with dirty office politics, bribes, who is
shagging who, and the way that the Min. of Ed. feels it needs to feed industry rather than pay money to retrain teachers and invest
in pupils who, while learning computer programming at school as part of their general educational enrichment, may never write a
computer program again.
Last edited by richmond62 on Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stam
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Re: DevGuides

Post by stam » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:17 pm

I'm sorry Richmond, but since when has releasing plugins had to be vetted by you or anyone else?

What was the developer supposed to say? Myself, Jacksie and George and our 3 cats thought it would be nice a nice feature to have? The WE is clear here - if you perceive this as offensive you should perhaps work on your reading comprehension.

The post in NO WAY implies that this should be built into the IDE, should apply to all or should be mandatory. Hence your post is unjustified.


PS: I have zero respect for anyone who uses the word "woke".

richmond62
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Re: DevGuides

Post by richmond62 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:22 pm

I'm not vetting plugins because:

1. That is not my job or my area of expertise.

2. I think that plugins that can extend the capabilities of LiveCode are a marvellous idea.

What I am doing is pointing out 2 things:

1. The use of 'We' by the OP gave an unfortunate impression that there was universal dissatisfaction with the current LiveCode IDE.

2. The reason that LiveCode has not had greater uptake as the 'programming language of choice' has probably got very little to
do with any real or percieved shortcomings with the current LiveCode IDE.
PS: I have zero respect for anyone who uses the word "woke".
Humph, Indeed, that was out of order, and I apologise.

I have zero respect for anyone who is Woke.

Although, to be fair, the "caustic, arrogant and offensive response" did look a bit like it was coming
from the direction of 'cancel culture' where awkward 'noise' is dismissed out of hand, and, even if you know
nothing else about me, you should know that awkward noise is one of my party tricks.

This is something I learnt when I studied Philosophy, that the Socratic trick is to make awkward noise, which may be
offensive (c.f. Diogenes Laertius), but is almost always revelatory.

AndyP
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Re: DevGuides

Post by AndyP » Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:32 am

Thank you FerrusLogic for taking the time to make this enhancement and then putting it out to the community for free.
Andy Piddock
https://livecode1001.blogspot.com Built with LiveCode
https://github.com/AndyPiddock/TinyIDE Mini IDE alternative
https://github.com/AndyPiddock/Seth Editor color theming
http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/897/ LiveCode-Multi-Search

andresdt
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Re: DevGuides

Post by andresdt » Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:33 am

stam wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:59 pm
Hi @andresdt,

further to this i had a quick test and compared with bnGuides.

I'm not sure i could entirely get it to do what i wanted it to do.

in this example it would not let me align the middle field, when editing this group:
devGuides.jpg As you can see, the 'firstName' field is being aligned below the surname field, which isn't great...


whereas with bnGuides (in either of its modes in screenshots below) it worked fine:
bnGuides.jpgbnGuide2.jpg

On the other hand i haven't so far had any of the errors i've occasionally seen with bnGuides.
Will watch this space with interest!
Stam
This extension has been developed based on XD, despite it is not at the level of XD we try to make it as close as possible but we forgot about “select grouped” Livecode's option, thanks to you for making us note it, It is implemented on the new version of the plugin.

https://github.com/Ferruslogic/DevGuide ... tag/v1.0.2

Image

golife
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Re: DevGuides

Post by golife » Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:26 pm

DevGuides from FerrusLogic: Tested on Windows. It works very well. Thanks a lot.
I give 5 stars...) :D :D :D :D :D (if I am allowed to...)

Well, usually I actually set up my environment including lines and columns of objects by script that have a general purpose to do this. But visual guides are, of course, very user-friendly.

I also agree that the LiveCode IDE needs a visual and functional revision. The version we are using is years old. I also liked HyperCard when it appeared for the first time. But would anybody now use such visual interface not even using greyscale gradients and a really tiny Macintosh screen?

Also, the standard visual objects, buttons, fields, etc. should by default behave according to some common style guide out of the box. That is so easy in Flutter, for example. All is styled and works as expected.

I am aware, that probably the resources for doing such work, and other tasks such as fixing more bugs in a shorter time, are not available to LiveCode company. Could there not be a big donation? So many millions, well, billions, are wasted for all kinds of nonsense.

Enjoy nevertheless... )))
Roland

prometheus
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Re: DevGuides

Post by prometheus » Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:16 pm

Thank you very much for your 5 stars @golife, we will continue working on improving this extension

Klaus
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Re: DevGuides

Post by Klaus » Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:32 pm

Hi andresdt,

yes, very cool, thanks a lot!
Is this you (too) -> prometheus?


Best

Klaus

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