Silly Header

Bringing your stacks to the web

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richmond62
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Silly Header

Post by richmond62 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:44 am

Why does anything generated as an HTML standalone
always have 'Emscripten-Generated Code' at the top?

bogs
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Re: Silly Header

Post by bogs » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:00 pm

If I had to guess, I'd say it is because that is what Lc is using to create HTML5 ....erm....doodads? Pages? Standalones?
Wikipedia wrote: Emscripten
Emscripten is a source-to-source compiler that runs as a back end to the LLVM compiler and produces a subset of JavaScript known as asm.js. It can also produce WebAssembly. This allows applications and libraries originally designed to run as standard executables to be integrated into client side web applications
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Re: Silly Header

Post by richmond62 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:14 pm

Wouldn't things be lovely if, instead of "that" the top
of my web thing read "Richmond's Crappy Stack" or whatever?

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Re: Silly Header

Post by bogs » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:25 pm

Dunno, I haven't played extensively with the html 5 thingie. Taking a look....
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Re: Silly Header

Post by bogs » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:47 pm

You didn't specify exactly what the top of the web thing was, but I am guessing you are talking about the title bar of the browser, and perhaps the heading in the tab. If that is the actual case, you simply open the generated html file, and modify the title to be whatever you want.
aPic_emscriptenToCrappyProject1.png
What is in a name? A rose by any other name would still...
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richmond62
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Re: Silly Header

Post by richmond62 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:28 pm

you simply open the generated html file, and modify the title to be whatever you want.
You simply have to remember that with LiveCode there is a longish list of workarounds one has to memorise
to get things done.

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Re: Silly Header

Post by bogs » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:08 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:28 pm
...you simply open the generated html file, and modify the title to be whatever you want.
You simply have to remember that with LiveCode there is a longish list of workarounds one has to memorise
to get things done.
Well, you could always write your own IDE hee hee. That would be a wonderful class project ! (I still play with your Hc clone from time to time).

All joking aside, considering the HTML stuff isn't complete yet, I think it would be nice if eventually the name or title of the stack was inserted as the title in the generated html file. I personally have no use for the html part of the IDE, but for beginners approaching it that would make it more complete.
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Re: Silly Header

Post by richmond62 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:25 pm

the HTML stuff isn't complete yet
Far from it: and it would be nice if LiveCode could rejig their road-map as it is
horribly out of date, and there is no mention re the HTML project at all.
-
Screenshot 2020-07-12 at 20.24.16.png
-
The "obsession" with handhelds seems to mean that a lot of stuff that really does need
sorting out on the desktop side is getting swept under the carpet.

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Re: Silly Header

Post by jacque » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:38 pm

The "obsession" with handhelds seems to mean that a lot of stuff that really does need
sorting out on the desktop side is getting swept under the carpet.
I think desktop apps will mostly be going away soon, except for some like LC that absolutely require a desktop OS. One of my projects is for university students and they began complaining a couple of years ago that we had no mobile app. We recently released one, and asked the professors to do a quick survey of the students and the devices they used. A significant number did not own a computer, they did everything on their phones and tablets. When they had to do assignments with our desktop app, they needed to visit the school computer lab. They complained about that.

Desktop apps will never completely disappear, and many things are just easier to do on a computer. But almost everyone wants mobile these days. I haven't had to write an actual desktop app for a couple of years now.

So my own preference would be for LC to continue to focus on mobile, especially those things that require special syntax and scripted creation (like scrollers, for example.)
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Re: Silly Header

Post by bogs » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:15 pm

jacque wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:38 pm
The "obsession" with handhelds seems to mean that a lot of stuff that really does need
sorting out on the desktop side is getting swept under the carpet.
I think desktop apps will mostly be going away soon, except for some like LC that absolutely require a desktop OS. One of my projects is for university students and they began complaining a couple of years ago that we had no mobile app.
I dunno, I'm currently doing a lot of that stuff myself (going to school again, ONLINE no less, working with multiple applications, etc). While I've seen things related to the field I'm trying to enter on a mobile device, I just simply can't imagine that it would be easier to do the job on one than on a computer (CADD/CAM), and especially not if you have to see fine detail on a large section of a particular drawing.

As well, you often need several windows of completely different software open at the same time, certainly in a learning environment, and from what we've been given to understand, in a work environment. You have your chat window, text editor, actual software your working in, etc all open at the same time. If you can do that on a mobile device, my hat is off to you, your far better than I could ever be.

Now, do I believe that kids would be asking for a mobile app? Sure, I have no doubt everything you said about that is true as can be. Do I think desktop computers are going away anytime soon? Not likely, I heard about that for maybe 6-10 years now, and still haven't seen it come to fruition. Mobile is good for some things I'm sure (although I never found a reason to get a device), but I don't think it will replace a desktop for a real work environment. Supplement it maybe, but not replace it.
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Re: Silly Header

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:06 pm

jacque wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:38 pm
One of my projects is for university students and they began complaining a couple of years ago that we had no mobile app. We recently released one, and asked the professors to do a quick survey of the students and the devices they used. A significant number did not own a computer, they did everything on their phones and tablets. When they had to do assignments with our desktop app, they needed to visit the school computer lab. They complained about that.
Has the client company discontinued the desktop version?

If not, what usage percentages do you see for mobile vs desktop?
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Re: Silly Header

Post by jacque » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:30 am

Now, do I believe that kids would be asking for a mobile app? Sure,
Yup, it's kids. Or at least, at my age, I consider college students to be kids. I'm with you, I can't work online very well without a computer but it seems they can. They're used to it, and lately mobile operating systems have been adding features to make it easier; split-screen, chat bubbles, that sort of thing. But for detailed work, as you say, you can't beat a big screen with lots of room. Or if you need to do a lot of typing, because typing on a mobile device is painful. (When I saw I was going to answer this post, I put my tablet down and went upstairs to get my Chromebook.)

Which is another thing: Chromebooks are becoming extremely popular with the college crowd, and I'm pretty impressed with them too. They have the advantage of behaving like a computer -- bigger screen, keyboard, optional mouse, etc. However, Chromebooks run not only Chrome apps but also Android apps, and our Android build runs okay on them. Not great, but okay. So that's technically also mobile development.
Has the client company discontinued the desktop version?
The desktop version is still actively supported, and in fact it does things that are difficult to do on mobile, so we put up a screen that says "to complete this assignment you need to log in on a computer." The kids complain and have to go to the computer lab or finish at home, but only for a much shorter time. There are only a few things that require it.
If not, what usage percentages do you see for mobile vs desktop?
I'm not sure, I'd have to ask the client if they know. I'm not sure we ever did a survey. We also had a diversion that prevented us from releasing an iOS app, and most of the students prefer iPhones, so our data would be skewed because only the Android app is available right now. The iOS app will be submitted next week and then we may know more.

My prediction about desktop apps is probably subjective, based on the fact that I haven't been asked to write a desktop app for a couple of years now. Everyone wants mobile, and the general consensus is that if you don't have a mobile app you'll lose market share. Even Adobe has put out (somewhat restricted) mobile versions of their main desktop software. I can't imagine editing images on a mobile phone, but there you have it. And the current generation is very comfortable using Google Docs and Sheets and whatever to do all their work in the cloud.
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Re: Silly Header

Post by richmond62 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:07 am

Yup, it's kids.
Creatures of fashion.

Here in Bulgaria (which, compared with the USA, is way behind the wave), a quick-n-dirty survey of 1,200 students at
the University where my wife is boss of the English department (conducted by the Uni's IT services office) found that
ALL students have access to some sort of computer/laptop: ranging from things running Windows XP "upwards", but
preferred not to lug laptops around; so, only used those desktops when at home.

I belong to a British pensioners forum (planning . . .) and of the 500 or so members there, they are ALL using desktops:
but, hey, ageism. 8)

Now; can you honestly say that people who work in offices or online from home, prefer apps for handhelds?

Schools across the planet (oh, that's odd, there are computers outwith the USA) deploy desktops/laptops for content delivery
and reinforcement in their classrooms & places that are increasingly misnamed 'libraries'.

To my mind, at least, what you are really saying is that you have been targetting the handheld market for the last 2-3 years
because the app market is not as saturated with apps as the desktop one is.
Last edited by richmond62 on Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Silly Header

Post by bogs » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:36 pm

@Jacque - your answer(s) pretty much what I expected, even in this case the app side of the program supplements a real computer. I was unaware that any mobile device (not chromebooks) could show multiple windows, which for anything but superficial programs would be difficult to work with imho.

Speech to text has gotten better, but is still far worse than typing manually for accuracy. I laughed at the line
(When I saw I was going to answer this post, I put my tablet down and went upstairs to get my Chromebook.)

I've seen some very smart people made to look like they were completely illiterate when using speech to text :D

As to this part -
jacque wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:30 am
[1.]My prediction about desktop apps is probably subjective, based on the fact that I haven't been asked to write a desktop app for a couple of years now. Everyone wants mobile, and [2.] the general consensus is that if you don't have a mobile app you'll lose market share. Even Adobe has put out [3.](somewhat restricted) mobile versions of their main desktop software. I can't imagine editing images on a mobile phone, but there you have it. And [4.] the current generation is very comfortable using Google Docs and Sheets and whatever to do all their work in the cloud.
1.) I don't know the specifics of your work load obviously, and I am only a hobby hack at best, but in the fields I've worked in that relied on computer software, even manual labor jobs like brick making, the software is always going to be desktop centric. In the construction trades, estimating can be done on a mobile device (rough measuring, form filling, etc) and for sure it works out better for the person doing the estimate (not necessarily for the client), but even in that situation it all goes back to the office and onto desktops in one way or another.

2.) Sure, taking the above trades example, no one wants to carry even a laptop and try to measure out a room with it, it is far easier to put your phone (or whatever) against the wall and shoot the beam across and have it auto-fill the fields. For an estimate which only needs to be ball park accurate, that works out fine. There are plenty of ways apps can supplement any software on a desktop, or be used to get information to a desktop, but I don't see any way it would replace a desktop.

My thoughts on everyone seeming to want (top word of the year x) is that you, as a software supplier, should certainly do your best to provide (buzzword x), hopefully in great quantities, and make a killing. The downside of (buzzword x) will become apparent a little ways off, and everyone will then want (buzzword y).

I remember when years ago, everyone was telling me (the cloud) was the way of the future. Sure enough, LOTS of people listened to that garbage. What do we have now? Utilities that can be hacked, financial institutions that can be hacked, colleges that can be hacked, and other crimes that are now so easy to commit that the perpetrators don't even have to leave home.

I can't even begin to tell you how much more convenient it is for me to have to unfreeze my credit now just to get a quote for car insurance, or hope my identity isn't stolen. Boy, I'm sure glad the majority went with that!! Yay cloud storage eh?

3.) I can actually see someone wanting to do a quick doodle on a phone (not me, of course, I still use paper!), and I've actually seen people do comprehensive 3d modeling on a tablet (with the proper accessories, like a drawing pen), but even there as you say, the limits quickly put you back on a desktop at some point.

4.) You really don't want my opinion on the current generation. Just like the generation before ours, and the one before that, stretching back to the dawn of time I am sure, each generation that comes along seems to have crazy ideas until they get far older and reality takes the points off their heads :P

Disclaimer: The above is the opinion of someone who is probably not entirely sane. Read at your own peril. The above is also not intended to be taken literally, subjectively, inconsequentially, or in a hostile manner.

Being my own opinion, you are free to disagree with it as everyone has their own opinion, however, if you disagree with my opinion, then in my opinion, your opinion is incredibly silly.

The author of the above reserves the right to deny having ever made any of the statements in the above text (and since attention spans and memory of audiences have declined so greatly in the last 4 decades, if anyone quotes any part of the above text, I will simply claim it was an edited and unauthorized version or that I never said it. Seems to work for everyone else :P )
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Re: Silly Header

Post by richmond62 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:10 pm

your phone (or whatever) against the wall and shoot the beam across and have it auto-fill the fields
And there I was feeling ever-so up to date by having one of those unrollable metal measuring tapes. :D

Also; where I come from we use a spade to fill in the fields, or, when things get too much a tractor and a dung-spreader.

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