Is this what we need?

Share tips, tools, and other resources for helping educators bring LiveCode into the classroom

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richmond62
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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by richmond62 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:43 pm

is it based in any kind of evidence?
Personal experience with about 75 children who, having worked with Scratch found both LiveCode
and BBC BASIC significantly more difficult to learn than those children who had not had contact with Scratch.

I don't feel 'unbelievably groovy' at being accused of pulling prejudices straight out the top of my head:
my prejudices are based on what I have experienced: and, Yes, 75 children do NOT a statistical something
make, but the interesting thing (I won't use the word 'fact' here) is that ALL of those 75 children felt somehow
'blocked' owing to their experiences with Scratch when it came to starting with BBC BASIC or LiveCode (the 2 languages
I teach).
Last edited by richmond62 on Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stam
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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by stam » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:58 pm

No offence meant - and i have no dog in this fight - but I was just curious why you repeatedly put down Scratch as tool for teaching kids.

I just skimmed it: it has variables, control structures all sorts. Seems like a fairly fully fledged tool for creating kid-level stuff (what it's geared at), it's widely free, it has a web-based IDE and produces web apps that can be shared online, linked with a kind of light social media platform to help maintain kids' interest.
The thought process that goes into creating an app, in principle at least is similar to any other language - conditionals, loops etc.

It's endorsed by great educational institutions and I'm willing to wager that at least an order of magnitude more kids learn or play with Scratch than they do liveCode, so it has a well proven track record in this arena.

So what is it that makes Scratch so bad, which liveCode does so much better? I'm not arguing which IDE is superior - clearly LiveCode as tool produces professional grade software and Scratch is a toy.

But surely free tools like this for under-10s should be celebrated rather than put down? I've only heard strongly negative criticisms about this on this forum, which seem to be opinion rather than fact based (in the sense that those putting it down have not looked at it in depth and used it).

Again i'll stress have no stake at all in this, and to be perfectly honest, i really don't care. But if i did, i'd be very interested to know.

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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by Newbie4 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:05 am

I agree. I see nothing wrong with using it in grades 1-6.

In fact, I made the proposal to RunRev years ago to actively pursue the grades 7-9 market. There is a need for a computer language in those grades. Scratch is too easy and Python is too difficult. It is a perfect chance for LiveCode to establish itself as the language to use.

Once adopted, it might spread to the upper grades.

But Scratch, as a basic teaching language in upper grades, is not appropriate. For early grades, it is ideal. I agree
Cyril Pruszko
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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by Bill » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:01 am

To demo your Scratch program, you need to install Scratch on the computer.
This is completely false. There are literally thousands of examples of user made Scratch projects online in the browser, no install required, they can be edited in the web browser without any install. There is a social network built right in to give feedback and encouragement to developers. Don't log in for a few years? Your project is still there, it still works, it's available anywhere. My project from 2014 is still up there.

If a kid learns livecode in 9th grade in 2021, his project would be locked out from access and his built binaries would be dead in 2028 unless he shells out $9.99 a month or $839.16 over the whole period for access to his work on just one platform. If goes to another school, woops, there goes everything he's learned in the last school since he doesn't have access to the $9.99 month IDE in the new school.
But Scratch, as a basic teaching language in upper grades, is not appropriate.
Harvard disagrees and are running on at least ten years of success with Scratch as an introduction to computer science for young adults. Over 1800 videos on youtube teaching computer science. 800 in class students a semester, thousands of online students every semester.

There are 23 active organizations using the block programming paradigm via Google's Blockly API including Microsoft.
In August 2020, GreatFire announced that the Chinese government had blocked access to the Scratch website. At the time, it was estimated that more than three million people in China were using it. -
Wikipedia

With Blockly's ability at outputting Javascript, Python, and Lua it jumps miles ahead of Livecode in being functionally relevant to people going on to program languages beyond their training environment.

Oh look you can teach people to make Augmented and Virtual reality with blocks. or you can teach them to make a Body Mass Index calculator with Livecode, gee which one will people prefer?

Blocks and 3D right in the web browser No download, no install.

Generate printable 3D models with blocks

Learn AI, Machine Learning, Robotics with blocks ,with a phone based IDE to boot

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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by richmond62 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:15 am

I have no objection to people using Scratch, and I use Turtle Graphics in my school
to teach a bit of sequencing (children are NOT taught at school that the horse
should be in front of the cart).

What I do object to are the claims made about Scratch; to me at least they
seem about as specious as stating that learning to ride a bicycle with support
wheels will mean that you can learn to drive a manual gear shift car more easily
than if you don't learn to ride that sort of bike.

The claims made about Scratch presuppose that Primary level children
(i.e. younger than 11-12) are capable of abstract reasoning, which,
with the odd exception, they are not. To reason from the block coding
to more 'trad' coding (even LiveCode) involves a mental leap, not a
smooth transition, which those children cannot do.

There is no reason for people to get "all prickly" anent Scratch, but
there is reason to realise it is no more the "magic bullet" than anything else.

The idea that programming can be play is just another example of the
current educational outlook that everything has to be 'fun', and has resulted
in a lot of cases of children who, as soon as they are faced with the requirement
to do some real thinking, crawl back into their shells because it isn't 'fun'.

A lot of education can be both 'fun' and fun, but children should be shown that
the greatest fun is overcoming a mental challenge, not being fed pap on a spoon.
Last edited by richmond62 on Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

stam
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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by stam » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:09 am

richmond62 wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:15 am
The claims made about Scratch presuppose that Primary level children
(i.e. younger than 11-12) are capable of abstract reasoning, which,
with the odd exception, they are not.
Very interesting discussion - i suppose one of the points is that environments like Scratch actually remove a large part of the abstract reasoning as well as offer incentives to younger people.
You're not dealing with abstract data, you're dealing with Mr Monkey and want to move him around the screen and you're given concrete, tangible tools to do just that.
It's a bit like starting with arithmetic in school and then going to abstract algebra is it not?

Much like maths, not everyone will do well in it and not every student good at arithmetic will do well in algebra, so judging small cohorts of how Scratch students progress probably doesn't give the full picture - but there must be something in it given the massive support from internationally renowned educational establishments, not to mention that they've managed to get at least $1.6M in donations in the last 3 years, judging by their supporters page.

Rather than replacing LiveCode I wonder if there is some way to harness this to LiveCode's benefit...

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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by richmond62 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:54 am

environments like Scratch actually remove a large part of the abstract reasoning
Yes, they do . . . but the problem with that is that a child may become extremely adept at getting things done with Scratch,
but is then unable to make the leap (and it is a conceptual leap) from that to the 'other' way of computer coding.

Another criticism of Scratch is that it is primarily used for knocking together games: how that teaches children
about variables and constants escapes me.
-
SShot 2021-09-26 at 12.52.27.png
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AND, frankly, I cannot see how this is a great advantage over this:
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NT3.jpg
Attachments
NLCT.livecode.zip
Knock yourself out.
(121.57 KiB) Downloaded 141 times

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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by richmond62 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:07 am

AND if you had any doubts about how bonkers I am:
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turtle-graphics1.jpg
turtle-graphics2.jpg
turtle-graphics3.jpg
-
However 'clever' my re-creation of the BBC BASIC turtle graphics stuff in LiveCode
may be it brings a child no nearer to computer programming than anything else
that Seymour Papert ever came up with.

And, to be fair, Seymour Papert was NOT trying to teach computer programming
to young children.
Last edited by richmond62 on Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by richmond62 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:21 am

SShot 2021-09-26 at 13.15.11.png
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[http://www.hyact.net/_en/store/gds_intro.php]

Oversimplification of the worse sort.

makes me as frightened as this:
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ascent-of-man.jpg
-
as it is now known that the "elevator model" makes little or no sense

[quite apart from the fact that I have about 5% Neanderthal genes and about 95% Homo Sapiens genes
in my DNA.]

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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by Newbie4 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:59 pm

Rather than replacing LiveCode I wonder if there is some way to harness this to LiveCode's benefit...
Good point. Why fight them, join them.

The more logical way is to provide a transition to LiveCode. Have a translator convert a Scratch program to run in LiveCode. Or make available a Scratch-like interface for LiveCode. Go from Browser to Executables with your program.

Don't know if either is possible or reasonable. But it is a start for ideas....
Cyril Pruszko
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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:42 pm

Newbie4 wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:59 pm
Rather than replacing LiveCode I wonder if there is some way to harness this to LiveCode's benefit...
Good point. Why fight them, join them.

...make available a Scratch-like interface for LiveCode.
See my earlier reply in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=107&t=35939#p205970

Fortunately/unfortunately, I did not find the grant funding needed to bring that to fruition, and now that there is no open source version of LiveCode the plan is irrelevant.

But for a long while I not only thought your premise had value, but I was actively trying to make it happen.

Oh well. There are enough implementations in other scripting languages that maybe it doesn't matter now anyway...
Richard Gaskin
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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by richmond62 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:52 pm

a Scratch-like interface for LiveCode.
Doable . . . DID a prototype a few years ago . . .

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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by richmond62 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:04 pm

and now that there is no open source version of LiveCode the plan is irrelevant.
If the protagonists over here: https://openxtalk.org/forum/index.php

stop burbling about "I had a great idea about", "let's recreate HyperCard exactly" and other distractions
and get down to their stated aim . . . to provide an ongoing open source version of LiveCode, but relabelled
and so forth, this should be possible.

I, however, have begun to lose my @#$%^& with that lot as they seem to be going off on an awful lot
of self-indulgent tangentialisms which don't really serve any purpose except putting off the work required.

I have, on a computer of mine, a "sanitised" version of LiveCode Community 9.6.3, insofar as it has
NO "tarty extra features" that the folk on the openxtalk forums go on about, but is stripped of what
I believe are the references and features connected to LiveCode that have to be stripped out . . .

BUT, in the great scheme of things that is of little or no value if folk cannot put together cross-platform
installers and have a code base that is capable of being upgraded at a later date.

However, I would like to point out that LiveCode have gifted me 20 FREE educational licences,
and are obviously prepared to be extremely generous if they perceive some non-financial benefit accruing,
SO the fact that LiveCode Open Source, as such, has vanished, should NOT be enough to stop this
sort of initiative going forth.

A few weeks ago I posted something titled "RevMedia 4.0 was so right", and, in due course LiveCode
might like to consider releasing something like that where coding can be performed but standalones
cannot be generated . . . and, if you really want my "Full On" educational opinion, Widgets do NOT
feature as do not Data Grids.

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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by jacque » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:32 am

If a kid learns livecode in 9th grade in 2021, his project would be locked out from access and his built binaries would be dead in 2028 unless he shells out $9.99 a month or $839.16 over the whole period for access to his work on just one platform. If goes to another school, woops, there goes everything he's learned in the last school since he doesn't have access to the $9.99 month IDE in the new school.
Actually, Heather posted that school licenses allow students to create standalones that never expire. School licenses are $25 per seat.
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Re: Is this what we need?

Post by richmond62 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:44 am

My ONLY criticism of school licences is that pupils should have a way to
do homework outwith the classroom on their own computers.

Considering the vast amounts of money governments spend on installing
Windows on school machines (Why, forbye, give them Linux) 25 * $25
to equip a lab with LiveCode is chickenfeed.

The problem, as we all know is not the 25 bucks, it is the perception
that C# and friends are what employers need.

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