Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Want to talk about something that isn't covered by another category?

Moderators: Klaus, FourthWorld, heatherlaine, robinmiller, kevinmiller

Post Reply
sefrojones
Livecode Opensource Backer
Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:46 pm

Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by sefrojones » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:48 pm

TRANSLATION:

"Recently, YOU've been investing heavily in product development, by donating to TWO successful crow-funding rounds and buying multiple licences. Now that the hard work is done, we are pricing you out, and crippling the community version"


SO long, it's been good to know ya. If any of you LC users ever need to contact me, my e-mail is sefrojones@gmail.com

I'm out.


--Sefro
Last edited by sefrojones on Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

FourthWorld
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 6684
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by FourthWorld » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:27 pm

How is the Community Edition "crippled"? Both Community and Commercial use the same code base, and all features in Commercial are available in Community except for the ability to conceal scripts, since of course hiding source is incompatible with the GPL.

Regarding Kickstarter, any licenses you obtained through campaigns are unaffected by changes to prices for new licenses.

And while their returning to their older pricing is an increase of ~$150 a year over their current $29/mo. experiment, the letter that explains the new pricing also includes an offer to extend a licence by two years for $499, less than $21/mo., saving $72 a year over the current pricing.

Additionally, that two-year extension offer also allows licensees to extend further at the current price of $299 a year for Indy licenses.

If finding an option here that maintains the same or better cost than you're currently paying isn't clear to you from their letter, or if you have concerns about licenses obtained through Kickstarter backing, drop a note to support AT livecode.com.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

Klaus
Posts: 11012
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:41 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by Klaus » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:44 pm

Hi Richard,

did you read Kevins mail?
Here the relevant part:
...
We will add some great new features to the paid licenses only. (For example,
the upcoming new camera support features will only be available in Indy or Business.)
...


Best

Klaus

sefrojones
Livecode Opensource Backer
Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by sefrojones » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:52 pm

I have spent a siginificant amount of money over the last couple of years supporting LiveCode. As a hobbyist developer who makes no profit from LiveCode development, I was ONLY supporting LiveCode because of the Community Edition and it's supposed mission of "bringing coding to everyone". Now as Klaus pointed out they are not including the new camera features in community edition, and who knows what's next. I can't be the only one who feels like I've been lied to. Had I known they were going to do this, I would never have invested so much of my money or time into it.

--Sefro

Edit: also still waiting on Box2D physics and the single window IDE that was in the original kickstarter, and then never mentioned again.
Last edited by sefrojones on Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

FourthWorld
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 6684
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by FourthWorld » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:28 pm

Klaus wrote:Here the relevant part:
...
We will add some great new features to the paid licenses only. (For example,
the upcoming new camera support features will only be available in Indy or Business.)
...
Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Klaus.

It will certainly be a main point of discussion in our next community coordination meeting.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

sefrojones
Livecode Opensource Backer
Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by sefrojones » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:18 pm

Richard,

Forgive me if I am being overly dramatic. As you know I have been a big supporter of LiveCode. I have been supportive and positive up until this point. This decision to begin to split the functionality between the Community version and the Commercial versions is a terrible idea that goes against the LiveCode that I thought I was supporting. I feel that this first split will inevitably lead to a community edition that becomes incrementally crippled moving forward.

--Sefro

FourthWorld
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 6684
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:05 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:12 am

sefrojones wrote:This decision to begin to split the functionality between the Community version and the Commercial versions is a terrible idea that goes against the LiveCode that I thought I was supporting.
In addition to supporting both Kickstarter campaigns, I volunteered for the role of Community Manager because, like you, I see great promise in a single code base available under two licenses, so whether one's making proprietary works or contributing to the world's knowledge with open source works, LiveCode brings something uniquely valuable to both.

In fact, it was the earnestness in Kevin's voice when he and I were talking about LiveCode's open source initiative that compelled me to step up into this CM role.

And it's that earnestness that leaves me wondering if perhaps the wording in that email may be more of an issue than his intentions.

Having been in the tools business myself I appreciate the challenges of limiting your audience to developers, but at the same time I feel pretty confident that open source is too critical to LiveCode to let that side of the project risk perceptions of it taking any sort of back seat to the other license option.

Sometimes emails go out without as much care in the details of their wording than they might merit. I've sent far too many myself that could have benefited from having someone else read it first to ensure it conveyed what I was trying to say.

I don't know any details of what this new camera functionality is about, but I very seriously doubt it will cause the removal of any existing functionality from the Community version. If this were core functionality we're depending on that would be one thing, but it may be very specialized functionality outside of the engine, perhaps as an add-on Widget. I just don't know given how little info I have in hand.

So for now, until I learn more about this from Kevin, I'm without an opinion on this until I hear some clarification on the company's plans.

In the meantime, you've done nothing that needs forgiving. Open source is serious business. It may not be easy, but nothing in business is. But for a programming language in the 21st century it's now a requirement, and the world has enough experience with open source to reward such engagement where it's in earnest.

Your own earnestness isn't drama, just passion. For now I'm just going to keep coding in LC until I hear more, and I suspect the outcome won't be quite as dire as it might seem from a vaguely-worded email.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

Newbie4
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:17 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by Newbie4 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:28 am

Richard,

I agree with Sefrojones. I have the same sentiments. I also supported them in all the kickstarter campaigns with significant amounts of money for licenses, extensions and duplicate awards that I will never use. I was supporting them purely for the sake of keeping the language available to students, not for making/selling products. I believed in them and their cause enough to "donate" the money to them.

It sometimes feels that they have disregarded their long time supporters (us) in their never ending quest for more money. I do not disparage them in their search for more money but I feel 'forgotten' in the process.

They have continued to offer new academies, lessons, templates and other inducements to their new customers. I paid a substantial premium for my use of the product and I would like access to those new lessons too. I would like to learn more on how to use the language and program better.

I am not asking for any extra support or free products from the store. But if they are giving something away for free or providing new lessons and especially ones on new features for free to new customers, why not make them available to their “lifetime” subscribers?

As an example, they give the course “Learn It With LiveCode” to new licenses. It shows them how to create many common apps using LiveCode. I would be interested in learning that too. I have sent a number of emails to LiveCode support asking for just the templates or the code that they use in the lessons, no other support required. I have even offered to pay for it separately, without having to purchase a monthly license. I was told that it is not possible. It was referred to marketing or someone. I have heard nothing since.

I would think that they would pay more attention to their original and 'strongly committed' supporters. We are the ones who continue to bring attention to their efforts, continue to forward the cause and continue promoting the language in word and products. They risk turning their evangelists into castoffs and critics.

I still believe in them and their cause, but it is getting harder to be enthusiastic about it. It seems like I need to keep buying licenses to move forward with the language. I feel like I have a disadvantage compared to brand new supporters.

Thanks for listening and good luck in your endeavors as Community Manager and in bringing some of these concerns forward to RunRev.
Cyril Pruszko
https://sites.google.com/a/pgcps.org/livecode/
https://sites.google.com/a/setonhs.org/app-and-game-workshop/home
https://learntolivecode.com/

AndyP
Posts: 420
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:57 pm
Location: Seeheim, Germany (ex UK)
Contact:

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by AndyP » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:40 am

Hi Richard,

It almost seems that LiveCode did not keep you in the loop about these changes?

The price for Indy is going up $200 not $150, extract from the email below.
To do that, prices are going to rise to $499 a year from July 24th.
The community version will become the poor relation, there is no ambiguity in the statements below from the email. I've highlighted the important phrases.
More Features for Serious Apps

To better serve all areas of our community in the coming months we will be differentiating the feature set between Open Source, Indy and Business further. We remain fully committed to providing a great experience at each level. What does this mean?

Open Source Community retains every part of its current feature set, nothing will be removed
We will continue to evolve all editions and provide a great core feature set at all levels
We will add some great new features to the paid licenses only. (For example, the upcoming new camera support features will only be available in Indy or Business.)
We've got some fabulous new Business oriented functionality we can't wait to reveal to you (but we are going to wait because this email is not about that. Watch this space for more info...)
The email explains the price so>
With the levels of investment in product development being so high, the Indy license is no longer sustainable at its current price.
I read this as "someone ballsed up on our income/cost projections"

Personally I feel let down by LiveCode and their constant promises and back tracking over the last few years. I've been a fervent supporter of LiveCode backing both Kickstarter campaigns. The fiasco with the Pancake server outage which lost me a week of web and email also lost the potential of the local school where I live dropping their consideration for LiveCode which i had been working hard on promoting with parents and teachers, the parent association site was on Pancake! the lack and slowness of information and support turned them away.

I've always paid the yearly licence but I think I will not be renewing this year.

Andy
Andy Piddock

http://2108.co.uk/tinyide/ - Mini LC IDE alternative

http://2108.co.uk/script-editor-themer/ - Script Editor colour theming

http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/897/LiveCode-Multi-Search - Search across 8 LC resources

SparkOut
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:58 pm

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by SparkOut » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:47 am

I wonder if such things as the new camera feature will require libraries that are not compatible with the open source licence terms and hence cannot be included in the community version. In which case, say so. Otherwise it does come across very much as a "let's get the work done on the back of the community, and then monetise it again" scenario. Especially given the subscription based licence.

paul_gr
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:38 pm
Location: Blenheim, New Zealand

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by paul_gr » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:10 am

I agree with everything sefrojones,Newbie4,AndyP and Sparkout said
Here's a few more points...

I'd like Runrev to stop making promises they can't keep.
A promised Android Externals SDK was quietly forgotten years ago.
Now we are being promised that widgets in Livecode 8 are going to magically replace the need for externals -- BS.
Splitting out the HTML5 project as a separate product (ie pay more) is another thing that breaks from the tradition of "one purchase, use LC for all platforms".
Now LC are leaving features out of the community edition -- this is the opposite that was promised when community was announced.

Indie price rise to $499 -- does Runrev want me to leave?
THIS MONTH, I have to "lock in" $299/year. WTF.
I have to pay out $499 for two years before the price of Indie goes up.
I'm paid up till October--I wasn't planning to part with more cash now.

After 9 years using LC I'm not sure that the continued uncertainty and broken promises are worth the trouble.

Paul
Last edited by paul_gr on Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

dave.kilroy
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 858
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:17 pm
Location: Plymouth, UK
Contact:

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by dave.kilroy » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:11 am

Hi all - I don't read it as such a 'stab in the back' as others have - Kevin specifically gives us a way to carry on paying the current price ($299)
That's a great deal and as a one time offer, when you buy that I’ll also include the right to buy future Indy licenses at the current $299 price in subsequent years.
LiveCode used to sell for a higher price - (I seem to remember £350 which is about $548) so I agree with AndyP that their current pricing strategy must be leaving them out-of-pocket

In all my dealings with RunRev/LiveCode I've found them to be honest, decent and helpful (indeed one of the reasons I chose RunRev over Real Basic [as it was then]) and I don't believe they are changing now.

Below is a fuller quote from Kevin's email that I think shows he is not trying to 'pull a fast one':
Your Loyalty Reward

I know you may have already made a significant investment in LiveCode based on the current Indy pricing and, therefore, I would like to reward you for your loyalty. I invite you to purchase the Indy License at the special price of $499 for two years of subscription before the prices go up. (If you have a current subscription we’ll add the two years to the end of that term.)

That's a great deal and as a one time offer, when you buy that I’ll also include the right to buy future Indy licenses at the current $299 price in subsequent years. We are offering you this one time opportunity to protect you against this and any future price rises as a thank you for your loyalty.

I hope you'll take this opportunity to secure your Indy license at the old price and lock in your right to buy it at that price. Prices are rising to $499 a year or $49 a month after July 24th. Please go here to buy your two year pack and lock in the old pricing now:

http://livecode.com/lock-in-your-price

I hope you'll feel free to ask me any questions regarding this change. You can do so here.

Thank you very much for your continued support.

Kind Regards,

Kevin Miller
As to crippling the community version - I don't think this will happen - instead what they are talking about is extra functionality for the commercial version (just like password-protection is only available in one version and not the other)
"...this is not the code you are looking for..."

dave.kilroy
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 858
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:17 pm
Location: Plymouth, UK
Contact:

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by dave.kilroy » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:39 am

What worries me most about this affair is how people like Sefro, Klaus, Newbie and AndyP are taking it - and even Richard seems to have been blind-sided - :(

Kevin an intervention from you in this thread would be very welcome!

I'm now going to say the magic word CHEESE! Hopefully this will bring a response if nothing else will...
"...this is not the code you are looking for..."

bn
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
VIP Livecode Opensource Backer
Posts: 3273
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:12 pm
Location: Bochum, Germany

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by bn » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:17 pm

I am with Dave on this.

please compute the current license as Big Macs per year using this index for your country

http://www.statista.com/statistics/2743 ... a-big-mac/

Seriously they have to feed the developers and that development is going into the Community Edition. (mostly as it seems now)

Just dipping my toes into Livecode Builder, it is fantastic, though a bit of a puzzle right now. But then again you have to pay the New York Times to solve the crossword-puzzle, and Livecode-puzzles are much more rewarding for me.

Kind regards

Bernd

Klaus
Posts: 11012
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:41 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Recently we've been investing heavily in product develop

Post by Klaus » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:19 pm

dave.kilroy wrote:What worries me most about this affair is how people like Sefro, Klaus, Newbie and AndyP are taking it
Nothing to worry about with me, I am not "taking it" anyhow!
I only gave Richard a hint about what he may have overlooked!

Post Reply

Return to “Off-Topic”