Better site

Want to talk about something that isn't covered by another category?

Moderators: Klaus, FourthWorld, heatherlaine, robinmiller, kevinmiller

Would you fund a campaign for a better livecode website?

YES
4
25%
NO
12
75%
 
Total votes: 16

dunbarx
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Re: Better site

Post by dunbarx » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:04 pm

Richmond.

Or "Instant gratification isn't fast enough..."

Craig

MaxV
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Re: Better site

Post by MaxV » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:54 am

I created this: http://livecode.wikia.com/wiki/Livecode_Wiki
It's free, open, everybody can add or modify pages.
If you want to do something, it can be a good start.
For example I don't own a Mac, so the Mac part is missing.
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: https://livecode-blogger.blogspot.com
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

AxWald
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Re: Better site

Post by AxWald » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:31 pm

Hi,
This looks great, thank you! I registered.

Well, since this topic comes up again, I revisited livecode.com & livecode.org, and it's still ... - well, let's say it's "utterly incompatible with my age, taste & education". ;-)
Nevertheless this seems to be the way the RunRev folks like it, so we have to live with. Regarding this it may make sense for us "to roll our own", and the wiki would be a perfect place. I'd be in within my limited possibilities, happily. But:

[Mode="RANT";Alt="Better skip this if you don't like ranting!"]

  • Just there's an evil worm gnawing at my relation with LC - there's doubts starting to grow within me about my future with LC:
  • LC 6.7.10 is, for me & my projects, the latest version that makes sense to use. It has most of what I need, and the number of bugs & nuisances is tolerable. What's still lacking could be done by myself, or with a bit of help.
  • LC 7 is now as abandoned as LC 6 (as we were told), and, beside it, has nothing to offer me to even excuse thinking about a switch.
  • LC 8 too, as the official stable now, has nothing over LC 6.* that would help me & my projects, but is, IMHO, ... - well, let's say it's "utterly incompatible with my requirements for a production IDE" . ;-) And it's so ugly!
  • I'm in the progress to switch my database front ends from MS Access to LC, but cannot help myself finding me browsing for alternatives, sometimes.
  • Would I win the lottery today, I'd hire a few of our wizards to fork one of the 6.* releases and make them building this fork to a state as rock solid & complete as this great language deserves! And since it'd be GPL anyways, why not kick the support of not-GPL-compatible targets at this opportunity - wouldn't the manpower be better spent elsewhere? There's still LC 8 anyways, right?
[/Mode]

Now stoneth me, but I couldn't but say this one day.
Thank you for choosing not-so-big stones! Now I feel better :)

Back to topic, and tl;dr:

I think this wiki is a very good idea and should be supported. If it shows it finds the necessary support I propose to create a sub-forum for it here.

Have fun!
Livecode programming until the cat hits the fan ...

MaxV
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Re: Better site

Post by MaxV » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:19 pm

Dear AxWald,
I agree with you on web sites, the enormous rows style is unusable and unintelligible to me too. Moreover images doesn't explain anything, look the old image:
Image
It was so clear!
I agree with you that Liveoce 8 is still very immature and graphically horrible, however the HTML5 export is interesting.
Nevertheless livecode deserves a better site.
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: https://livecode-blogger.blogspot.com
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

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Re: Better site

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:25 pm

sritcp wrote:Nothing prevents the community from coming up with its own (unofficial) LiveCode website.
(LiveCodeCommunity.org, LearnLiveCode.com, LiveCodeIsGreat.com)
It could be a responsive website built with LiveCode!
It can link, where necessary, to the relevant pages of the mothership website.
We can invite website design suggestions and choose one collectively.
This is one of the best suggestions in this thread, a chance to lead by example. The more high-quality sites out there promoting LiveCode the better.

I own the domain learnlivecode.com, and would be happy to provide that along with hosting for it once a team is assembled and at least an initial mock-up of the site produced.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

RossG
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Re: Better site

Post by RossG » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:37 pm

richmond62 wrote:
As long as I can remember the complaint about the
learning tools provided for any programming language
has been that they show you how to make the "bits" but
not how to put them together to produce a useful programme.
Well; why does that sound like a load of people who aren't actually prepared to make the effort
to learn computer programming?

If one has a bit of persistence, is not hopelessly stupid, and gets on with things,
there is no reason whatsoever that one cannot get Livecode to make useful
programmes without being spoon-fed . . .

. . . Ah, but wait a minute; I come from the generation where we didn't all
"want it now with the minimum of effort, and as dumbed-down as possible".

Stop whining!
It's not me who's whining. I quoted what has been said many times
by others.

That notwithstanding it is also my experience.

How long will the "average" person persist with a new language
unless learning it is made easy? I would guess that like the
vacuum cleaner salesman you have maybe five minutes to make
your pitch. If you can't show that it cleans better and faster than
the other cleaners why should the "newbie" get hooked?

As was said elsewhere a showcase of programmes made with
LC would do this. In my case it was seeing Button Gadget that
inspired me to persist. I just wanted to be able to do that
myself. (Still do.)

And as for "generations" I think I qualify, at 79, to have been of
the generation that you describe.
Is age an excuse? Eighty-one and counting.
Programming powered by coffee and nicotine.

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Re: Better site

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:09 pm

RossG wrote:How long will the "average" person persist with a new language
unless learning it is made easy?
Hard to say. LiveCode includes more learning materials in the box than C, Python, JavaScript, and most other very popular languages.
As was said elsewhere a showcase of programmes made with
LC would do this.
Been a while since you visited livecode.com?
https://livecode.com/customers/
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

richmond62
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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:06 pm

How long will the "average" person persist with a new language
unless learning it is made easy?
There is a school of thought that the word "average" is actually negative.

This is exactly the same as learning a foreign language: if someone really wants to, with all the motivation, persistence and stamina they will.

Why do I get uneasy when I see the words "learn" and "easy" in the same sentence, unless they are divided by a word such as "isn't"?

I believe that "the modern disease" is the short-attention span, quick route to success obsession.

However, people should be asking themselves, how many really successful people got where they are overnight, and how many people got
their easily. People (especially young people, who are being spoon-fed a lie) need to know that very few things are easy, and anything that appears to
be made easy (learn French in 3 weeks) is a fudge at best.

I believe that a person who won't persist because something is not made easy isn't worth bothering about; as something that is acquired easily
will never be properly valued, or taken seriously.

If you want to go for the totally crapulous "Learning is always fun" junk, well, go for it; but it won't do you much good when the going gets tough.

On Monday I shall be starting the third Summer school (err; wait a mo' that sounds dead pretentious: classes introducing children to Livecode)
with children between 8 and 16 (Yes, this year I have managed to land an 8.5 year old girl! Bright kid; but we shall see how far that gets her: I hope
a long way). I am not going to be so misleading as to tell those children that programming is easy, and, in fact, we will spend one or two
'heavy sessions' on variables and stuff which, last year at least, tend to produce tears and confusion . . . never mind; bag of boiled sweets on the table,
loo paper in the corner, jug of juice and glasses by the window, and so on . . . all OK after a quick weep.

-------------------------------------

If there were a website that spoon-fed would-be Livecode developers it, ultimately, would do nobody any good at all.

Last year, one boy was getting nowhere, so he asked his friend for help, and his friend, stupidly, spoon-fed him everything.
Come the exam, of course, that boy couldn't cope with the most basic things; while his friend romped home. Needless to say,
I gave his friend a "wigging', not him; because he was, after all, just a lazy toad.

The struggle is part of the cognitive process of learning the language.

sritcp
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Re: Better site

Post by sritcp » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:51 pm

FourthWorld wrote:.........I own the domain learnlivecode.com, and would be happy to provide that along with hosting for it once a team is assembled and at least an initial mock-up of the site produced.
Here's something to start us off. Please feel free to begin a separate topic, if you think this has legs:

1. Here's the Home Page Structure. I recommend an accordion-style, nested-menu, since the site will cater to visitors with widely disparate needs and thus should give them a quick overview of the site to preclude frustration and loss of interest (this is not a trivial problem).

A. WHAT IS LIVECODE?
A1. I am completely new to programming
A2. I know programming
A3. I am a professional developer
{ I will expand each sub-category later in this exercise}

B. WHAT CAN LIVECODE DO?
B1. Feature Set
B2. Market Segment-wise description (Education, Industry, Business, ....)
B3. Contrived Examples (to exemplify specific strengths)
B4. Real-life Applications (Request the developers to describe, esp. in case of private applications).

C. HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?
C1. Community
C2. Indy
C3. Business

D. WHAT IS SPECIAL ABOUT LIVECODE?
D1,2... : Highlight each selling point with description and testimonials

E. HOW DO I START?
E1. System Requirements
E2. Installation Instructions
E3. Download link

F. HOW CAN I GET HELP?
F1. Quickstart Guide + Video
F2. Lessons (Step-by-step learning of LC; Written & Video)
F3. Tutorials (To perform specific tasks; Written & Video)
F4. Guides (Manuals with larger scope)
F5. Dictionary API
F6. Example Applets (for demonstrating capabilities: e.g., Rossi's graphic examples, Hermann's HTML5, Richmond's ...., etc)
F7. Paid courses (Fulvio's Udemy course; Academies that come with paid-up LC licenses, etc.)
F8. One-on-one training (link to a list of instructors)
F9. Online Forums: (LC Forum, Use List, Stackoverflow)
F10. Contact Community Ambassador (specify purposes.....)
F11. Contact LiveCode Support (specify appropriate purposes...)
{It is important for prospective adopters to realize that there is a wide variety of resources with varying scope and depth)

G. HOW CAN I KEEP MYSELF INFORMED?
G1. Blogs (LC and others)
G2. LC on Facebook, Google+, etc.
G3. User Groups
G4. Conferences


2. In unfolding the first category (A. WHAT IS LIVECODE?), it is important to design separate user experiences for each consumer segment.

A1. For the complete newbies, it is important to communicate that LC is a) simple, b) intuitive, c) yet powerful, and d) useful, even if you are never going to be a professional developer. To this end, we should design an interactive experience (may be, using LC's HTML5 feature) of programming with LC (similar to Khan Academy's javascript lessons). It is also important to demonstrate small but useful programs that an amateur LCer can write, such as sending email invitations (or thank you notes) using mail merge, etc.

A2. The key to grabbing the attention of current programmers is LC code compared side-by-side with a number of common languages (selectable by the visitor) on a series of programming tasks. Widgets, extensions, and multi-platform are other features on the shout list.

A3. For professional developers, the twin factors of efficiency and effectiveness are highlighted through quantitative and qualitative data, as well as testimonials. Get as technical as you need here.

----------------------------

I could go on and on, but you get the point.

Regards,
Sri

richmond62
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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:01 am

The key to grabbing the attention of current programmers is LC code compared side-by-side with a number of common languages
"Bingo, boy; you got it in one!" This should be said in a raucous, red-neck accent.

This MUST be the way to get programmers weaned off C#, C++ and so on.

FourthWorld
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Re: Better site

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:57 pm

richmond62 wrote:
The key to grabbing the attention of current programmers is LC code compared side-by-side with a number of common languages
"Bingo, boy; you got it in one!" This should be said in a raucous, red-neck accent.

This MUST be the way to get programmers weaned off C#, C++ and so on.
Respectfully, I believe comparisons with C or C++ are red herrings. Of course every good programmer understands that scripting languages are generally faster to develop in. Even when that development speed often comes at a cost of execution speed, scripting languages have become dominant over the last decade in many areas of applications programming because of their favorable time-to-market benefits.

So to appeal to today's applications programmer we need to compare with JavaScript, Python, BASIC, Lua, etc. And while I do believe LC offers a combination of 1) high-level language with 2) integrated GUI elements in the language 3) on seven platforms that we rarely if ever seen anywhere else, the argument becomes a bit less obvious when we consider the perceived benefits of OOP that characterize most other languages, or the similarities among them that make adopting them often simpler for the experienced coder than adopting LiveCode.

The benefits for a wide range of projects are quite real, but will take a well-crafted presentation to make them self-evident.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

rinzwind
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Re: Better site

Post by rinzwind » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:02 pm

No no no. The current learning material only covers the basics. One task, one quick answer. It does not offer "best practices" in designing your application and making sure it is extendable and maintainable. Bad coding practices are easy to develop in LiveCode, maybe more so because all the shouting about "how easy it is". Complete application examples are missing. Some examples spend sooo much time tinkering with a gui while thats not what it is about. So yes I do agree with RossG. And btw... All those other languages mentioned like c and javascript have loads and loads of books, sites and samples available. LiveCode is niche so make sure it stands out. Also, the examples should make clear what makes LC unique or better. How to make the best use of the message path, groups, common code, behaviors, generic data access solutions, ...

Ps1 Mobile support is laughable when one compares what's there with how hard and what the marketing is shouting (for years mind you).

Ps2 it does NOT help to make a business framework only available to the most expensive edition. Whatever that framework means in practice. Everyone could use a good thought out framework as a base and as an example of how to do common things.

richmond62
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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:39 pm

Complete application examples are missing.
I don't think that is true at all.

What might not be available are complete application examples with all their code exposed so that
people can pinch it. And, frankly, as I have spent about 5 years sweating and grunting in most of
my spare time over a program (Devawriter Pro), I'm not entirely sure if I want to just splash the hard-learned
code around for any one to grab and run off with.

Certainly the current Livecode site has pots of stuff.

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Re: Better site

Post by Lagi Pittas » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:34 pm

Here is an idea and I've mentioned it before. It worked in the Clipper, Foxpro and Delphi days.

The mothership writes or has written a FULL accounting system Sales Purchase Nominal ledger, Invoicing using best practices.

The modules can be bought with source code as a Bundle or separately for say £300 first module to £200 each subsequent module. or £500 the lot.

They can of course be compiled and run with the open source version of LC and many companies that have to put up with the crap Sage that has a kitchen sink with 10 taps and door knocker when all they want is an invoicing program with a nominal ledger and a few tweaks that would make their life easier.

Anybody with a business or Indy licence gets it for say £400 all modules but when they sell a copy to someone a donation is made (dependent on what they feel - If I sell to a million pound company for £10,000 with all my tweaks I would willingly pay £500 - but It will be on the honour system - forget all these licencing and subscription.

Most companies will want the code for themselves and I would argue might decide to purchase an Indy licence (because they are not making money by selling the software if they are selling widgets) to get some added services for their onsite programmers.

This is a revenue stream for Livecode and for many of it's devotees/consultants who will be needed for the bespoke stuff - which LC can supply as well a win/win.

Stop waiting for people to come to you for externals, give the world what it wants a bloody good/simple clean accounting system that shows off what LC can do.

It can work with sqlite if you want - a cut down cheaper version and a more advanced one with MySQL/PostgreSQL - we would all learn assuming the code is written properly.

Just a thought .....

Lagi

richmond62
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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:09 pm

a FULL accounting system Sales Purchase Nominal ledger
I suppose you think that will pull in the crowds like nobody's business.

I wonder what percentage of programmers, would-be programmers, hobbyists, other folk potentially interested
in Livecode are interested in that sort of stuff.

I'm not for one.

If (and I'm not convinced about a need here) Livecode wants to impress people
and "reel them in" with demonstration programs the company will have to identify
7-12 areas and provide demo programs for all of those.

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