Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:20 pm

Newbie4 wrote:All those customers I have read about from before I got started in LiveCode. They may have been around even longer than the dates above. The dates that I used, were ones that I could verify quickly with Google.
Yes, with a product as mature as LiveCode it's possible to search for older articles such as the ones you found. As for the ones I mentioned, I guess we just have a very different perspective on this, since I don't see it as a bad thing that people continue using LiveCode for many years.
I was just reiterating my position that RunRev needs to do a better job at getting noticed and taken seriously, not only by developers but also people/students/schools/etc. It is revealing that they have to keep rewriting news from previous customers. Do not they have any case studies with the new Community version, news of schools adopting LiveCode into their curriculum, or even schools looking at it?
It takes time to collect and write those stories, which is one of the reasons we've created the Community Education Outreach Team. I really would encourage you to submit your good ideas in the forum we've set up for that team so they can be acted on:
http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=107
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by paul_gr » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:51 pm

Here's from an LC user that is leaving....I'm not going to "lock in"
I'm like most people. Changing the conditions of licensing or raising the price of any product makes me rethink whether the product delivers good value for me.
Every time I purchase an LC licence it seems to have a new name -- Why?
Last time I purchased LC it was called "Commercial", before that "Enterprise".
now the equivalent is called what?

"If you do not upgrade it reverts back to Community"
This seriously p*sses me off. I know some of you think this doesn't matter but it does to me. We all have different ways of looking at things.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong as a Windows/Android user, but I always have the feeling that Runrev has an "Apple comes first" attitude to everything. I've introduced about a dozen paying customers to LC in the past 5 years.
I'm the only one still here.

I don't expect perfection but I do expect promises to be kept.
An Android Externals SDK was promised years ago.
If an external SDK is impossible, then give an example of an LC 8 widget pulling functionality direct from ANY Android API and show it documented and working.
ANYTHING -- Something simple will do, as long as it can't be done in LC 6 or LC 7 already.
Otherwise it's just another case over the years of "talk is cheap".

To get around LC's Android deficiencies I have been moving Android projects into other tools that give me better access to Android functionality.

Paul

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by richmond62 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:06 pm

paul_gr wrote: I always have the feeling that Runrev has an "Apple comes first" attitude
That's most odd indeed.

I started using RunRev/LiveCode almost exclusively on Macintosh; but authoring for Windows and Macintosh.

I now use LiveCode for about 95% of the time on Linux, and about 5% of the time on legacy Macintosh machines: building for
Windows, Linux and Macintosh.

Now as I focus largely on Linux I've been having a "Windows comes first" thing throbbing in my head for ages, and prior to recent years,
when I worked on Mac I also had a "Windows comes first" thing.

I have a feeling that both you and I suffer from that well-known condition when you are driving down the motorway and you believe that the cars in the
other lanes are always faster than you are!

The FACTS are that, bar video, LiveCode is currently about on a par on all three desktop platforms it functions on.

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by paul_gr » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:11 pm

richmond62 wrote:
paul_gr wrote:The FACTS are that, bar video, LiveCode is currently about on a par on all three desktop platforms it functions on.
I agree with desktop, but not in mobile.

Paul

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by richmond62 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:13 pm

paul_gr wrote:"If you do not upgrade it reverts back to Community"
This seriously p*sses me off.
Yes, well it does make me feel a bit odd too.

This feels like buying a luxury car that after a year suddenly turns into a Ford Focus.

HOWEVER, as has been pointed out, it is (at present, at least, before the introduction of extra-funky features into the Commercial version)
perfectly possible to do ALL one's development on the Community version (just don't let software thieves get into your kitchen with a flash drive),
and then, once the thing is ready for release, put one's money where one's mouth is and "rent" a commercial licence for a month and belt out
the code-protected standalones.

If your offering then bombs you have only lost a very small amount of money: if it's a screaming success that demands endless upgrades,
then pay some more.

I understand (even if I don't particularly like) RunRev's reasoning behind commercial version expiry: they want to keep the revenue flowing -
and, after all, they have mouths to feed!

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by dunbarx » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:12 pm

I am all of a sudden very uneasy. I remember 15 years ago or so, when it became clear that HC was struggling. When it finally went away, I was despondent.

This thread has much merit, and I assume is being followed closely in Scotland. For my part, which is 10% itinerant commercial developer and 90% in-house developer, (all of us are hobbyists as well, I assume, since we all likely make stacks all the time for our own use) I am willing to do almost anything to help LC. I own v.5; Buying v.7 would help a little, I guess, but that is not what is needed.

Richmond is the only man in Bulgaria who has ever heard of LC. That is not a joke, because Bulgaria is just the place that an outlier programming, er, program should be all the rage, especially with a passionate advocate on the premises. I can almost understand that it is a harder sell in the United States. It is horrifying to me that a superior tool is not being spread and embraced. Just like HC, is too good to be true? How did any of the other "mainstream" languages get where they are today? Is that a dumb question?

Craig

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by AndyP » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:36 am

Ok, I had settled down after my last rant, but I have now just received an email from HQ which includes the following.
Relevant section highlighted.


LiveCode Indy
Subscription – Active
Next Payment Date – 27/09/2015
Period - Annual

The standard list price of LiveCode Indy will increase to $499 annually or $49 monthly on 24th July 2015. If you want to be protected from this price rise, you have the option to switch to our Price Lock offer at any time up to 24th July. You will pay $499 for 2 years upfront, then $299 annually thereafter. There is no monthly option for this offer. To learn more about this offer or purchase it please go here:

If you do not want to take advantage of this offer you must either cancel your subscription prior to 24th July, or agree to the new pricing for your subscription of $499 annually or $49 monthly, whichever is appropriate.

So as you can see my Indie licence (subscription) expires on the 27/09/2015, but according to this email if I do not agree to the price rise then I must cancel my subscription by 24th July!!! WHY? my licence (that's what it was called when I purchased) does not expire until the 27/09/2015.

Are Livecode intentionally trying to piss me off?
Andy Piddock

http://2108.co.uk/tinyide/ - Mini LC IDE alternative

http://2108.co.uk/script-editor-themer/ - Script Editor colour theming

http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/897/LiveCode-Multi-Search - Search across 8 LC resources

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by Thierry » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:02 am

So as you can see my Indie licence (subscription) expires on the 27/09/2015, but according to this email if I do not agree to the price rise then I must cancel my subscription by 24th July!!!
WHY? my licence (that's what it was called when I purchased) does not expire until the 27/09/2015.

Are Livecode intentionally trying to piss me off?
Just sent the same question to support@runrev.com an hour ago....

I prefer not to share my state of mind :roll:

Be happy,

Thierry
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Pourquoi tant de notes lorsqu'il suffit de jouer les plus belles... [Barbara]

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by dave.kilroy » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:29 am

Hi Andy - yep another email from LiveCode that could have done with editing before sending :)

I took it that they were referring to people who pay monthly - and only these people need to make the decision by 24th July as the next monthly payment they make would be at the new price.

Knowing what LiveCode people are like I can't believe that those of us with licences extending beyond July have to do anything at all. Our remaining time will be honoured I'm sure without any price hike - and only when we come to renew will the new price kick-in (if we haven't gone for their deal).

Of course I may be wrong but I think it's a case of opaque copy-writing from a company I know and trust...
AndyP wrote: If you do not want to take advantage of this offer you must either cancel your subscription prior to 24th July, or agree to the new pricing for your subscription of $499 annually or $49 monthly, whichever is appropriate.

So as you can see my Indie licence (subscription) expires on the 27/09/2015, but according to this email if I do not agree to the price rise then I must cancel my subscription by 24th July!!! WHY? my licence (that's what it was called when I purchased) does not expire until the 27/09/2015.

Are Livecode intentionally trying to piss me off?
"...this is not the code you are looking for..."

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by heatherlaine » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:40 am

Folks, of course we will honour the remaining term of all existing subscriptions. If you have an annual subscription that does not expire until June next year, then the price rise will not apply to you until June next year. If you cancel the subscription today, you will still get the remaining term on your license - you just won't automatically renew at the old price, when the license comes to an end.

In this case, the only thing you have to take action on by 24th July is to decide if you want to take up the price lock offer or not. This offer will NOT still be open next June, so if you want it, you should get it now, and it will be added to the end of your existing license. If you are not going to take up this offer, and you do not agree to the price rise, then cancelling now could be a good idea, to avoid forgetting all about it by June next year... But you don't have to. You can leave the cancellation as late as you wish.

Just a note on the license extension - if you have an existing license, and you buy the price lock, the action to merge those licenses and extend your expiry appropriately is something we have to do manually on the back end. Older subscriptions are Worldpay, and new ones are Cleverbridge, we have changed payment provider so this cannot happen automatically. So please, be patient... we're extremely busy right now. We will get to you, I promise. If you still haven't seen your license period update within a week of your purchase, then write to support, that is support@livecode.com.

Apologies for any confusion caused by the automated email, which was trying to cover a very wide spread of licensing cases.

Warm Regards, and thank you for all the support we are getting on this necessary price rise. We know nobody likes it, but we really appreciate the amount of understanding people are showing.

Regards,

Heather

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by sturgis » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:14 am

I'm one who doesn't make a living from LC, though I do quite a bit for friends around here coding whatever they need.

I too understand the need to make a living, and don't wish to see RR going the way of the dodo. However, if I were still paying for LC, the whole "reverts" thing would chap my hide too. The funny thing is, anyone who is doing mobile app development, would most likely end up buying every year whether their app reverts or not, simply to keep up with the tide of changes on mobile. New version of xcode and changed requirements? Yep, time to upgrade. For those who do NOT need more than "todays" LC, perhaps a slightly different sales model would help. 499 for a year with support tickets, value added support stuff and a reverting LC, or 499 and you own all versions for the year in question, and can choose to pay for support or not on top of the 499.

The next point I'd like to make.. Yep, raising prices can help, assuming you don't end up running off enough customers to make the price hike moot. Increasing the customer base rather than decreasing it is a GOOD thing. Richmond mentioned getting LC on as many "crappy magazine dvd's " as possible. Yep. How difficult would it be to get a "major computer manufacturer" to factory install community? Many times a product takes off no because its "the best" but because "It's there." And in this case, LC would not only be "There" but is a damn fine product too. Then theres LInux. It used to be that linux users were all the heavy geek types. Now, thats not nearly as true. Getting LC into repositories could be a big win. I admit it. I've thought about trying to learn enough to package LC for different systems, but its not necessarily a simple task, and I'm not nearly as able as I used to be. The idea is still valid though. Get LC on to as many systems as possible. I see it in the same vein as email blasts. Put your product in front of 10 people, and you might as well pack up. Get your product in front of millions, and even a TINY percentage of uptake is HUGE. And like everything else, once you reach a critical mass, a high enough level of buzz (assuming the buzz is positive) from those succeeding with LC.. Then it takes on a life of its own.

Next point.. Yes. Fix the website. Please. A bad website in both function and design can run off a customer in a heartbeat. I can't find products that I already own, 3rd party extensions that I might very well want to use again. I'm sure they're there somewhere. As far as the denial of service stuff going on, I don't envy RR in their battle. It sucks that there are griefers out there in all levels of life. Oh, and while i'm meandering.. The tutorials and guides should also be made as accessible as possible, along with -- "see, THESE are things you can do with livecode.." types of information.

On to the feature disparity. One of the faqs from the kickstarter says:
The source-base for the open-source and commercial versions are the same - its just a different license. The next generation re-architecture that we've described in this project will apply to both. The entire platform as it exists today will be open, the only thing missing from the open source version will be the script security module.
Thankfully, if the promise of LC Builder pans out it will make it much easier for features to be added to LC without having to worry about brute forcing it into the old monolithic engine. It makes it easier for LC to add features and monetize based on those features (they do need to make money, I like having them around!) And as you can read above, this doesn't go contrary to their kickstarter statements. It also makes it easy enough to add features that can provide whatever functionality is needed for community as well. I for one am looking forward to a solid and reliable builder because.. well having created 1 external in the past using the old external sdk.. I would rather dive headfirst into an empty pool.

Thanks for reading.

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by AxWald » Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:14 pm

Hi,
Newbie4 wrote:Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) is not free. The free version of Red Hat was converted to the Fedora Project and was split off years ago.
Just for the record, there's also CentOS, a more conservative OSS version of RHEL (compared to Fedora), perfectly suitable for servers.
Newbie4 wrote:How many users of the open source versions are actually converting to paying customers? The ones that don't, why are they not converting?
Why am I not converting? Because I don't need, and because it wouldn't give me a benefit:

I'm writing highly specialized software as a freelancer, and I charge for my time, not for the software itself. Selling software isn't useful for me, the effort to handle many payments etc. would take to much time.
Main tool is still MS-Access, but I'm doing more and more in LC. My LC projects are:
  • supporting the PhP on a web server with real-time data from the in-house ERP using sockets (also handling security, i.e. log ins and orders),
  • some rather simple but most useful automation tools to fire up SQL code to various databases, FTP commands to various servers (all started via AT/cron or by another program that can send shell commands), controlling and logging some backup utilities and more. And:
  • my current project, setting up a framework to mimic Access' form building abilities, to make even better front ends - this may need the use of datagrids even (shudder!)
Richard wrote:
FourthWorld wrote:The biggest opportunities for small businesses software entrepreneurship are in vertical segments, and it's in these vertical segments that LiveCode shines most brightly.
100% agree. And here the OSS version shines most!

At the beginning I had a bit of fuzz with my customers about OSS, but they quickly realized the advantages:
  • no license fees!
  • free access to my other code!
  • quick development, even on-site debugging!
    (With Access, you need the full version on-site to do that, not only the runtime)
Remains the problem how RunRev could make a buck with me - and don't get me wrong, I don't intend to leech! And I realize all to well that they need to make a buck to be able to improve LC further. A few crazy ideas about that:
  1. A RunRev App Store.
    A nicely made central app store (of course made in LC ...) where we can offer our work. With features like ratings and comments, and automated weeding out/ blocking of bad apples.
    OSS apps would come for free, apps meant to be commercial would cost a fee, from which RunRev would keep a share.
    Commercial apps could be made with the OSS version of LC too, they'd be locked by RR before displaying (not GPL anymore), and a certain fee for this would be collected from the first sales - maybe 25$ for the initial program, and 10$ for an update?
    This would be a great display of what's possible in LC, and could be used in the marketing to huge value.
    .
  2. Don't stoneth me, but maybe actually forking the OSS and the commercial version?
    Like RedHat? "Long term service" stables with good, direct support as commercial versions, maybe? These would be developed further according to the demands of the paying people.

    And then, the OSS version, developed by mostly volunteers supported by a small team of RR devs.
    They would get many of the improvements of the commercial version after some time, and could add other improvements that could flow back into the comm. version.

    Let's go one step further, 2 OSS teams:
    - one (the "CentOS team") is ironing out any bugs still in the 6.* versions until is solid like a rock. When done, 6.max is frozen, and the team starts to work with 7.*. Same goal.
    - the other team (the "Fedora team") meanwhile works at the bleeding edge, and can be utilized for testing new ideas by the devs of the commercial version ("RHEL").
    .
  3. Sell more stuff at low costs!
    For instance, more beautiful buttons/ icons/ patterns! Buyer pays maybe 5$, and gets a mid-res version. Beautiful enough to use it, but when the app is uploaded in the store (see #1), the high-res version is attached! And costs 1% of the buyers part at each payment ...
    Or the "Create it"/"Academy" stuff - why not offer it to not-yet payers for reasonably low prices?
    It's one thing to shell out $499, or to drop small amounts of money quite often ...
    There could be even a function in the app shop where you get some "only to spent here" coin for every download of your app, no matter if commercial or OSS.
Well, don't stoneth me plz, as mentioned ;-) This is the result of a sunny afternoons thinking, and for sure not really thought through. But maybe I have been able to contribute a bit to this most interesting thread, throwing in an idea or three.

Happy coding, and have a good time!
Livecode programming until the cat hits the fan ...

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by jacque » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:34 pm

There is already a store and has been for some years. It features third party extensions, and is on the web site under the Products menu. But if you mean that LC should also sell full apps unrelated to development, that might be a useful suggestion for them to know about.

The forking suggestion is very close to what's being done now, but without two separate teams. Version 6 will be locked down soon and focus will be only on 7 and 8.

Your third suggestion is probably up to third party developers. LC definitely does accept these types of submissions, they already have an icon set available. We could use more things like that. However, the commission on such low cost products would likely be too little to increase their revenue by much.
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw dot com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by sturgis » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:05 pm

The website has improved a little. I can actually get to 2 of the products I own. The rest (academies, and a few more extensions) are still lost in the nether, but i'm glad to see some changes going on.

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Re: Recently we've been investing ....[SOLVED?]

Post by heatherlaine » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:25 am

Sturgis, if you're missing products from your account please email support and we'll sort it out. Do check out the "legacy" tab, where you will probably still find everything you are missing... click "here" in the sentence "Please note your Legacy LiveCode licenses are still listed on the previous version of our licenses manager here".

I hope this helps,

Regards,

Heather

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