Hi all,
I'm still in the 30-day trial period and am trying to decide where to invest my time and money. I am a total newbie as far as programming goes, so at first glance, LiveCode looks much, much easier to learn than Flash's ActionScript. But the Flash development environment seems a little easier to grasp than LiveCode's card metaphor. Ultimately, I'd like to do some iOS apps, but Flash's ubiquitous plug-in makes web deployment attractive too. I already own CS4, mostly for Photoshop and InDesign, so upgrading to the current version would cost just a little more than buying a full developer license for LiveCode.
Does anyone have experience with both platforms who's willing to comment on which way I should go? Are they even comparable applications? Any input is appreciated.
Thanks,
Wardoggie
LiveCode vs. Flash: apples and oranges?
Moderators: FourthWorld, heatherlaine, Klaus, kevinmiller
Re: LiveCode vs. Flash: apples and oranges?
Hi Wardoggie,
I'd probably first ask how's the trial going. Have you been able to do things easily in livecode? Do you get the concepts easily etc. The other thing i'd as is have played with flash any?
I'd like to premise by saying that there is the right tool for the job. LiveCode does some things well and some not so well same with flash. For IOS development i'd have to say flash is much more robust and you get more out of using that platform if ur looking for mobile ATM. Take my opinions with a grain of salt but I am a professional Flash/Flex developer it's what i've been doing for over 5 years and its what i know best. I've also been a livecode user for about 3 years and have used it for projects as well.
I'd suggest getting both but if its one or the other this is my opinion.
Here's so pro's and con's to consider.
Flash Pro's:
1. You already own CS4 the workflow from say photoshop and illustrator into flash and flex applications is seamless and easy.It will look how u made it in the other programs.
2. If you need to learn flash there are some amazing resources to help you. Lynda.com , GOTOANDLEARN.com, stackoverflow, and tons of books.
3. Flash is in demand as a Flash/Flex programmer i have recruiters knocking down my door and offering me stupid money to dev for them.
4. Flash is portable you can port your application to of course WEB, IPHONE, ANDROID, and with AIR to (DESKTOP, BLACKBERRY PLAYBOOK, InternetTV including the new GOOGLETV). Knowledge of flash also helps if you want to get into game development as you can make games using flash but most games also use flash as there GUI and there is alot of demand for that.
5. Flash is a great jumping off point into other languages since its ECMASCRIPT Based and very close syntatically to JAVA and C# ur one step closer to widening your languages.
6. Flash Pro IDE is nice but there are alot alternatives, such as Flash Builder, PowerFlasher FDT, IntelliJ, FlashDevelop and even good ole vim and console if u are a linux freak.
7. Flash is awesome for 2D game dev.And even some 3D stuff.
Flash Cons:
1. Flash can be done well and be done bad. Don't be a bad flash person lol. Theres 2 sides of Flash development. Flash Designers(creative folks) and Flash Developers(code monkeys). Which one you do will effect the stupid money (3) from above. Flash developers get paid alot more than designers but its good if u can do both.
2. If creative and design is your strength you may be disillusioned to thinking the coding will be easy. While its not terribly hard its different from throwing basic code in a timeline and running.
3. Flash can be overkill for certain things and although it's a great front end tool back end there's better alternatives i think livecode is one.
LiveCode Pro's
1. Test while you dev, write a script see it change in real time and see the effects of it.
2. The language is much more easy to understand if your new to programming.
3. Powerful text capabilities, searching, filtering and more with text in livecode its alot easier than other languages.
4. Custom Tooling. If you need a nice one off tool or quickly prototype a concept i think livecode is the way to go. It has some very powerful commands to just get your idea working quickly.
5. Backend Development. I'd say i'd choose livecode anyday to do my backend work over something like Java its just simpler and helps me complete the idea while its still fresh.
6. IOS support is growing fast i have to say that while its not quite on par with flash's ability to write and deploy everywhere i think its still easier to do in livecode then in objective C
7. LiveCode represents a different approach to the Development cycle and i've seen some pretty cool stuff done with livecode which got me interested in the first place.
LiveCode's Con's
1. My biggest gripe with the liveCode is the IDE, to this day if for some reason i stop coding a project its because the ide crashed alot or things where not as intuitive as they should be.Using some of the amazing IDE's i told u about earlier coding in the livecode ide pisses me off because its not a reflection of the power of livecode and honestly just dont like it, you might so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
2. On-Rev has not been updated sense i don't know when and if u want to do server side livecode and dont want to run ur own server the sparse documentation and lack of momentem on that might make u steer clear. It actually made me go back to coldfusion for serverside code because its not where i need it to be for my projects.
3. I have to say documentation has improved alot and there is tutorials youu can go to for most basic stuff and boards. But you start to lose after that there needs to be more video tutorials and showing of more complex things with livecode. And believe me there has been some pretty complex stuff made with livecode but you'd be hard pressed to see alot of it publically.
4. There is an external for a hook into the Ogre3d engine and Animation engine (both addons). But other than that true 3D and 2D game dev on livecode is sorely lacking. I think a game server could be whipped up pretty nice in livecode i'm testing that theory now. But yeah for game dev honestly theres alot of work to do.
Remember these are just my opinions and not of any one elses. Please get others before making ur decision but i believe. That you'd be well served by both. Try to make something thats more than trivial with both and see how your experience is.
I like both i'd like livecode more once they support Android (they'd probably be my new best friend).
Goodluck and Hope you find the right tool for your job.
Docwes
If you have anymore questions u can shoot them to me at docwes1@gmail.com
I'd probably first ask how's the trial going. Have you been able to do things easily in livecode? Do you get the concepts easily etc. The other thing i'd as is have played with flash any?
I'd like to premise by saying that there is the right tool for the job. LiveCode does some things well and some not so well same with flash. For IOS development i'd have to say flash is much more robust and you get more out of using that platform if ur looking for mobile ATM. Take my opinions with a grain of salt but I am a professional Flash/Flex developer it's what i've been doing for over 5 years and its what i know best. I've also been a livecode user for about 3 years and have used it for projects as well.
I'd suggest getting both but if its one or the other this is my opinion.
Here's so pro's and con's to consider.
Flash Pro's:
1. You already own CS4 the workflow from say photoshop and illustrator into flash and flex applications is seamless and easy.It will look how u made it in the other programs.
2. If you need to learn flash there are some amazing resources to help you. Lynda.com , GOTOANDLEARN.com, stackoverflow, and tons of books.
3. Flash is in demand as a Flash/Flex programmer i have recruiters knocking down my door and offering me stupid money to dev for them.
4. Flash is portable you can port your application to of course WEB, IPHONE, ANDROID, and with AIR to (DESKTOP, BLACKBERRY PLAYBOOK, InternetTV including the new GOOGLETV). Knowledge of flash also helps if you want to get into game development as you can make games using flash but most games also use flash as there GUI and there is alot of demand for that.
5. Flash is a great jumping off point into other languages since its ECMASCRIPT Based and very close syntatically to JAVA and C# ur one step closer to widening your languages.
6. Flash Pro IDE is nice but there are alot alternatives, such as Flash Builder, PowerFlasher FDT, IntelliJ, FlashDevelop and even good ole vim and console if u are a linux freak.
7. Flash is awesome for 2D game dev.And even some 3D stuff.
Flash Cons:
1. Flash can be done well and be done bad. Don't be a bad flash person lol. Theres 2 sides of Flash development. Flash Designers(creative folks) and Flash Developers(code monkeys). Which one you do will effect the stupid money (3) from above. Flash developers get paid alot more than designers but its good if u can do both.
2. If creative and design is your strength you may be disillusioned to thinking the coding will be easy. While its not terribly hard its different from throwing basic code in a timeline and running.
3. Flash can be overkill for certain things and although it's a great front end tool back end there's better alternatives i think livecode is one.
LiveCode Pro's
1. Test while you dev, write a script see it change in real time and see the effects of it.
2. The language is much more easy to understand if your new to programming.
3. Powerful text capabilities, searching, filtering and more with text in livecode its alot easier than other languages.
4. Custom Tooling. If you need a nice one off tool or quickly prototype a concept i think livecode is the way to go. It has some very powerful commands to just get your idea working quickly.
5. Backend Development. I'd say i'd choose livecode anyday to do my backend work over something like Java its just simpler and helps me complete the idea while its still fresh.
6. IOS support is growing fast i have to say that while its not quite on par with flash's ability to write and deploy everywhere i think its still easier to do in livecode then in objective C
7. LiveCode represents a different approach to the Development cycle and i've seen some pretty cool stuff done with livecode which got me interested in the first place.
LiveCode's Con's
1. My biggest gripe with the liveCode is the IDE, to this day if for some reason i stop coding a project its because the ide crashed alot or things where not as intuitive as they should be.Using some of the amazing IDE's i told u about earlier coding in the livecode ide pisses me off because its not a reflection of the power of livecode and honestly just dont like it, you might so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
2. On-Rev has not been updated sense i don't know when and if u want to do server side livecode and dont want to run ur own server the sparse documentation and lack of momentem on that might make u steer clear. It actually made me go back to coldfusion for serverside code because its not where i need it to be for my projects.
3. I have to say documentation has improved alot and there is tutorials youu can go to for most basic stuff and boards. But you start to lose after that there needs to be more video tutorials and showing of more complex things with livecode. And believe me there has been some pretty complex stuff made with livecode but you'd be hard pressed to see alot of it publically.
4. There is an external for a hook into the Ogre3d engine and Animation engine (both addons). But other than that true 3D and 2D game dev on livecode is sorely lacking. I think a game server could be whipped up pretty nice in livecode i'm testing that theory now. But yeah for game dev honestly theres alot of work to do.
Remember these are just my opinions and not of any one elses. Please get others before making ur decision but i believe. That you'd be well served by both. Try to make something thats more than trivial with both and see how your experience is.
I like both i'd like livecode more once they support Android (they'd probably be my new best friend).
Goodluck and Hope you find the right tool for your job.
Docwes
If you have anymore questions u can shoot them to me at docwes1@gmail.com
Re: LiveCode vs. Flash: apples and oranges?
Thank you, Docwes, for your thorough reply!
The LiveCode trial is going well. I probably have about 12 hours invested in learning LiveCode. In that time, I was able to make a quick, no-frills calculator. It was the first app I could think of off the top of my head and I wanted to see if I could get the logic down. I am going to try to duplicate that feat in Flash so I have a comparison point.
I had to look up what ECMASCRIPT was... now I know why ActionScript is so cryptic
I played with Flash purely as an animation and media creation tool way back when it was Flash 4 from Macromedia. That's why the timeline makes more sense to me than the card metaphor. But ActionScript (and other scripting languages, for that matter) have always intimidated me. That's really the appeal of LiveCode, IMO. It's so much easier to grasp! The ideal solution for me would be Flash powered by LiveCode instead of ActionScript, but I don't think that's going to happen.
I asked a flash developer I work with what he thought and he offered another alternative, which sounds reasonable. he said, "Why don't you get the personal license and learn how to write code, then tackle ActionScript's syntax when you understand the concepts better?" Since you use both LiveCode and Flash, how hard is it to learn one after you've learned the other? Are we talking about an extra 50% time investment or does very little knowledge transfer from LiveCode to Flash and you basically start from scratch?
Thanks again for your insight,
Wardoggie
The LiveCode trial is going well. I probably have about 12 hours invested in learning LiveCode. In that time, I was able to make a quick, no-frills calculator. It was the first app I could think of off the top of my head and I wanted to see if I could get the logic down. I am going to try to duplicate that feat in Flash so I have a comparison point.
I had to look up what ECMASCRIPT was... now I know why ActionScript is so cryptic
I played with Flash purely as an animation and media creation tool way back when it was Flash 4 from Macromedia. That's why the timeline makes more sense to me than the card metaphor. But ActionScript (and other scripting languages, for that matter) have always intimidated me. That's really the appeal of LiveCode, IMO. It's so much easier to grasp! The ideal solution for me would be Flash powered by LiveCode instead of ActionScript, but I don't think that's going to happen.I asked a flash developer I work with what he thought and he offered another alternative, which sounds reasonable. he said, "Why don't you get the personal license and learn how to write code, then tackle ActionScript's syntax when you understand the concepts better?" Since you use both LiveCode and Flash, how hard is it to learn one after you've learned the other? Are we talking about an extra 50% time investment or does very little knowledge transfer from LiveCode to Flash and you basically start from scratch?
Thanks again for your insight,
Wardoggie
Re: LiveCode vs. Flash: apples and oranges?
I responded to you in email but incase someone else is following this thread, as someone new to programming i'd say give livecode a try its great for seeing things come together quickly and from there actionscript is a good next language up.
Goodluck and let us know what you come up with.
Doc
Goodluck and let us know what you come up with.
Doc
Re: LiveCode vs. Flash: apples and oranges?
I have worked with both... you are likely considering Flash Builder if you are comparing to LiveCode... Flash Professional is the tool to use for multi-media type projects, Flash Builder for applications (although you can make either in both).
Here is my list of things to consider:
1) Flash is a much more robust platform. Adobe has a lot more to invest, the community is bigger etc.
2) If you are building desktop apps, Flex Builder needs Adobe Air - so your installs are two tiered, first Air, then your app. It is relatively easy to update your app once is on someone's desktop.
3) Native look and feel is better in Live Code (for desktop), but from what I can tell (very limited experience) the mobile experience feels more native with Flash
4) Actionscript vs Transcript... I started with Actionscript - it is more like other popular languages, object oriented and other things. When I jumped into LiveCode I found it more difficult because you have to memorize a bunch of english words instead of a "." For instance, in transcript you code "create "button" in group "someGroup" and similar when you are accessing the button within a group. Dot notation is so much more concise. I guess I prefer a less "verbose" language - but this is preference more than anything. But they are very different languages. I think the skills you gain while learning actionscript will take you WAY further down the road if you want to learn PHP, Python or C++ or pretty much any other language.
5) You can import from Illustrator / Fireworks / Photoshop in Flash... design options for vector type work is not so hot in LiveCode. Printing quality is similar... LiveCode is better with line art / fonts, Flash is better with Transparency and effects. But both lack good transparency printing (soft shadows over images etc suck.) Flash is not great for fonts (it minimizes lines in fonts for file size).
6) Flash is probably slower. LiveCode apps seem to be snappier in my opinion.
7) Flash Builder provides you way more components than LiveCode... less you have to build yourself.
8 - Styling an app in LiveCode is a pain, where you can skin an app in Flash Builder with CSS. I don't know of an easy way to increase the font size on a certain type of widget in LiveCode... maybe there is a way. It's all hierarchical in LiveCode.
9) Many more learning resources with Flash Builder and Flex. With RunRev touting the "ease of use" in LiveCode you think they would put some effort into a massive training library. You can create the apps they make in livecode demos just as easily with point and click in Flex... the real test is when you get beyond the basics - because then you are in code and the most important thing is how the framework is organized.
10) Flash Builder is bloody expensive for mobile dev. Something like $800 - stupid. I was able to get a personal copy of Flex Builder 4 when they first introduced it during a promotion.
11) I have not experimented with connecting to other backends and REST API's with LiveCode yet - but I don't think it will be a piece of cake. You can get libraries to work with JSON etc in Flash.
12) Web distribution is way better with Flash - it's everywhere
Here is what I am thinking - LiveCode is a great tool for quick personal project and desktop apps. I think it's still immature on mobile. I think you could make a pretty wicked desktop app and that is where it's strength is. Flex is better if your concerns are around multi-media (video, animation and interactivity) and if you want to put it on a phone. Adobe is putting crap loads of money into mobile - but it will also cost you a crap load.
Other things you might consider looking at: 4D (4th Dimension for desktop only), Real Studio (Desktop / Web), Wakanda (a nice looking new javascript web app framework), Appcelerator (web, desktop and mobile - looks really good)
LiveCode is something I purchased, but it's certainly not my only tool and I'm still a beginner for the most part.
Here is my list of things to consider:
1) Flash is a much more robust platform. Adobe has a lot more to invest, the community is bigger etc.
2) If you are building desktop apps, Flex Builder needs Adobe Air - so your installs are two tiered, first Air, then your app. It is relatively easy to update your app once is on someone's desktop.
3) Native look and feel is better in Live Code (for desktop), but from what I can tell (very limited experience) the mobile experience feels more native with Flash
4) Actionscript vs Transcript... I started with Actionscript - it is more like other popular languages, object oriented and other things. When I jumped into LiveCode I found it more difficult because you have to memorize a bunch of english words instead of a "." For instance, in transcript you code "create "button" in group "someGroup" and similar when you are accessing the button within a group. Dot notation is so much more concise. I guess I prefer a less "verbose" language - but this is preference more than anything. But they are very different languages. I think the skills you gain while learning actionscript will take you WAY further down the road if you want to learn PHP, Python or C++ or pretty much any other language.
5) You can import from Illustrator / Fireworks / Photoshop in Flash... design options for vector type work is not so hot in LiveCode. Printing quality is similar... LiveCode is better with line art / fonts, Flash is better with Transparency and effects. But both lack good transparency printing (soft shadows over images etc suck.) Flash is not great for fonts (it minimizes lines in fonts for file size).
6) Flash is probably slower. LiveCode apps seem to be snappier in my opinion.
7) Flash Builder provides you way more components than LiveCode... less you have to build yourself.
8 - Styling an app in LiveCode is a pain, where you can skin an app in Flash Builder with CSS. I don't know of an easy way to increase the font size on a certain type of widget in LiveCode... maybe there is a way. It's all hierarchical in LiveCode.
9) Many more learning resources with Flash Builder and Flex. With RunRev touting the "ease of use" in LiveCode you think they would put some effort into a massive training library. You can create the apps they make in livecode demos just as easily with point and click in Flex... the real test is when you get beyond the basics - because then you are in code and the most important thing is how the framework is organized.
10) Flash Builder is bloody expensive for mobile dev. Something like $800 - stupid. I was able to get a personal copy of Flex Builder 4 when they first introduced it during a promotion.
11) I have not experimented with connecting to other backends and REST API's with LiveCode yet - but I don't think it will be a piece of cake. You can get libraries to work with JSON etc in Flash.
12) Web distribution is way better with Flash - it's everywhere
Here is what I am thinking - LiveCode is a great tool for quick personal project and desktop apps. I think it's still immature on mobile. I think you could make a pretty wicked desktop app and that is where it's strength is. Flex is better if your concerns are around multi-media (video, animation and interactivity) and if you want to put it on a phone. Adobe is putting crap loads of money into mobile - but it will also cost you a crap load.
Other things you might consider looking at: 4D (4th Dimension for desktop only), Real Studio (Desktop / Web), Wakanda (a nice looking new javascript web app framework), Appcelerator (web, desktop and mobile - looks really good)
LiveCode is something I purchased, but it's certainly not my only tool and I'm still a beginner for the most part.