Where are the newbies?

[richmond62]

Well, Mariasole, there are a number of possibilities:

1. CONTINUE using the Community version for teaching.

[This is perfectly acceptable]

2. Go somewhere else (sending link in a private email).

I fail to understand why all sorts of people are getting so fussed about the end of continued development of LC Community IF they want to use it to teach. I am continuing to use LC 9.6.3 Community both for teaching and for app development.

I doubt very much if any of the improvements that have been implemented between LC 9.6.3 and LC 9.6.10 are SO important vis-a-vis teaching pupils/students programming that it matters very much if one uses LC 9.6.3.

The only 2 sticking points are these:

1. If you wish to run LC on MacOS 14 Sonoma [personally I doubt very much of there are many schools or colleges that are upgrading their Macintoshes right now].

2. You want to deploy standalones on Mac ARM machines.

[richmond62]

Oh, and you want to protect your code . . .

Oddly enough as my Devawriter Pro is now used across about 50 universities world-wide no-one has ever requested the source code: so, why worry?

Oh, Apple, with their diktat, won't host a Mac standalone from LC Community on their Apple Store . . . this is just them making sure they get a slice of the pie (apple pie, presumably).

[stam]

Oh, Apple, with their diktat, won't host a Mac standalone from LC Community on their Apple Store . . . this is just them making sure they get a slice of the pie (apple pie, presumably).

Are you suggesting that Apple specifically blocks “community” derived apps (how would they differentiate these from commercial LC apps!?), and in extension opensource? Because that is of course utter nonsense.

Fairly certain that Apple charges nothing for free apps.
I believe they charge small developers 15% of purchases.
Regardless of free or not, in exchange you get free hosting of your app and no bandwidth charges - and your app is added to a searchable directory with good exposure for Apple platforms.

Of course you will need to be an Apple developer (£79/year) but this gives you access to other benefits on top of providing very reasonably priced code-signing and distribution certificates.

I’m fairly sure this is not profitable for Apple and is certainly not “a slice of the pie” (or to put it more blandly, this is not Apple profiteering at the expense of poor little developers, as you seem to be suggesting…).

[richmond62]

I think you will find, if you 'sniff around' that someone has confirmed in these forums that Apple will NOT accept apps from the Open Source LC versions.

profiteering at the expense of poor little developers

Well, they are certainly not 'profiteering' or even 'profiting' at anyone who uses LC Community's expense if they refuse to host them on the Apple Store.

I am sure that everyone hereabouts are well aware that Apple are being dragged through courts in 1 or 2 jurisdictions for monopolistic practices . . .

Of course one can "side-load" a Mac program by downloading the thing, skipping the "death and destruction" warnings [probably enough to put off a large number of end-users], and so on.

Of course you will need to be an Apple developer (£79/year) but this gives you access to other benefits on top of providing very reasonably priced code-signing and distribution certificates.

Ah: but who invented code-signing and distribution certificates, and are they necessary [no, because of what I outlined above], or just a way to generate revenue for Apple?

Up the road from my work there is a bookshop, and, if you buy 3 books you get a 50% reduction on the cheapest one of the next 3 books you buy . . .

Note you cannot use that coupon in any of the competing bookshops (we have 5 really good bookshops all within 100 yards).

The Apple developer fee ONLY gives you access to 'benefits' you would NOT need if they had not got your arm in a half-nelson.

Maybe I should start a business: after you have paid me for the first 3 jabs of heroin, I'll give you a free, 4th jab . . . hmm.

[richmond62]

AND, "back on track", so to speak, re newbies . . .

I do believe that until LC offers something like it did with RunRev 1.1.1 (10 line script limit per object), there is little chance of a revival.

For those who are curious, I made my M.A. Thesis stuff and a Commercial thing with that and experienced very little difficulty with the script limit (almost a way of disciplining oneself):

I had lots and lots of 10 line scripts stored in fields:

Code: Select all

on mouseUp
do field X1
do field X2
do field X3
end mouseUp

Many of those scripts stored in fields were 'chained' insofar as line 10 of each script led to the next field containing a script.

Obviously that resulted in considerably slower execution, but it did work.

[richmond62]

And, of course:

Code: Select all

 --code removed -- 

-

-
if you are a "serious mental case" like me you must, either put up with the outdated Community version, or find the money for a full Commercial licence.

However, a 10 script-line limit version would allow people a non-time-limited period to learn the language, try out a few things, and be able to properly assess LiveCode for what it is: a fantastic WYSIWYG programming system.

[stam]

Ah: but who invented code-signing and distribution certificates, and are they necessary [no, because of what I outlined above], or just a way to generate revenue for Apple?

I see, so you're saying Apple invented code-signing are you? And you are certain code-signing serves no purpose? And that code-signing is a profit making venture that costs nothing?
Please don't double down on erroneous assumptions, it's really not a good look.

Here is a simple analogy that may (I hope) help:

• Just because you can leave the door to your home unlocked doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so.
• Yes, you CAN do it. You will not face any legal consequences. However your insurance company may pull the insurance if that is the way you live, because you run considerable risk on purpose and consistently.
• And yes, that is what many of our great grandparents did back in the halcyon days of <insert fake memory here>
• And if you live in the middle of nowhere probably no harm will come of it. Probably.
• But is it a good idea today? Do you want to take the chance of being burgled (or worse)?
  Because that is what you are essentially and repeatedly promoting

A cursory internet search may help with actual facts. Here, let me do it for you:
This was the first link that came up searching for "what is code signing" (which also gives some insight regarding the infrastructure required and therefore costs): https://www.encryptionconsulting.com/ed ... e-signing/

Because I know you'll say this is biased, here's he Wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_signing

And really, just because you think this is an Apple thing, read this pdf about the importance of code-signing

There is some profiteering with this, but it's exclusively on the Microsoft side where you can easily pay 5 times the Apple price or more because it's been devolved to 3rd party companies who have no qualms gouging people.

But they are able to do this because code-signing is needed, much as a company that makes door locks is needed.
Granted, you can build a home with no locks, but I'm not sure you'd find many buyers... (well you could give it a way for free I suppose...)

[richmond62]

I give away my software for free.

BUT Apple and others make it difficult to deploy it on their systems.

[FourthWorld]

Oh, Apple, with their diktat, won't host a Mac standalone from LC Community on their Apple Store . . . this is just them making sure they get a slice of the pie (apple pie, presumably).

Apple doesn't disallow free-as-in-beer software. They don't even disallow open source in general.

They do disallow software distributed under GPLv3, because their store is wired to limit the number of devices an app can be installed on to five, while GPLv3 states that distribution has no limitations and that no one redistributing the software may impose further restrictions.
https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/mor ... nforcement

[jacque]

I give away my software for free.

BUT Apple and others make it difficult to deploy it on their systems.

True, and so does Google. But in the end you have a secure app that can be checked for malware. Without code signing, anyone could take your code and add malicious activity to it, and redistribute it as you. That would affect your reputation personally. Bad actors do not ask the author for source code so you'd never know. And neither would most users who would not be aware of where the malware came from, so you'd never hear about it. Since you operate in a fairly niche field your software is probably less likely to be attacked, but on the other hand, there are people everywhere who consider it just fine to abuse other people's work.

Aside from the yearly developer fee, all Apple certificates and other requirements are free. Google has only a one-time low fee to become a developer, and it is good in perpetuity. All its services and certificates are also free. You can become an Android developer for a one-time fee of $25 USD. Neither store takes a cut from free software they distribute.

[richmond62]

Thank you for that useful information.

[richmond62]

Oh, and, by the way, when living in Scotland, England, USA, KSA, UAE, Bulgaria I have never locked my door.

My Grandfather said that a decent human being should welcome everyone.

Did find a person in a very bad state snoozing on our sofa once: gave him a bath, some better clothes, and a good feed: then he spent about 2 weeks living in our basement, then he found work and moved on.

He cut our lawn, watered the plants, and was a very easy guest.

Probably had a few coins stolen.

Nothing to fuss about.

[richmond62]

Mind you, funny stories from Richmond will NOT attract users and clients.

A 10-line version might just do the trick.

[stam]

Oh, and, by the way, when living in Scotland, England, USA, KSA, UAE, Bulgaria I have never locked my door.

Having worked in Dundee for 3 years, London for 23 and other places including Worthing, Wrexham (Wales), Manchester and Birmingham (where my hospital accommodation, in the old days of living on hospital grounds, was burgled while I did a free shift to help out in ED on a Sunday), I would really not recommend leaving your front door unlocked anywhere in the UK.
Not in Greece either.
I lived for 8 years in Stockholm, Sweden and there you might have got away with It - or you might not have.

In general, that's not really advice I would subscribe to...

[richmond62]

My people come from Arbroath, via Dundee, and Dundee is the only place in my life I have ever been physically attacked (in Hilltown, mind). I fought back, and prevailed.

But, as a discerning Scot, I have picked my locations, and Lossiemouth, Sandhead, Herston, North Berwick, and St. Andrews are NOT Dundee, or, for that matter, Glasgow, where as a good friend of mine once remarked, "The women are men, and the men are subhuman."

Jeddah, for all the undoubted nastiness of being in a police state, was as safe as could be. Mind you, bloody awful in almost all other respects.

Al Ain, out in the desert, WAS (it isnae any mair) a sleepy Arabic doorp with nothing going on at all. Our boys went to a good Scots school there for 4 year., and we were gae happy, and left war door ajar.

Of course, in Orkney, if onie fowk dis tak a keek intil the howf and avails themselves o something, it is gae hard to hide on an iland qhair ae fowk ken all, and aa things will come back in their time.

I won't even bother to write anent England as the last time I byded there was 1988, so it is possible that things have changed. Although I have noticed that Mother, who stays in England, never locks her door.

When I moved to Al Ain in 1997 with my family, in the souk one day, an Indian fellow comes up and returns my copy of "The Last Temptation of Christ." and admits he had borrowed it 7 year syne . .(I had previously stayed a year as a Primary school teacher in Al Ain) . so why on earth should I lock my door?