Ah the use list ...

[jacque]

I apologize, Richmond. You know I love you (and your socks.) I was angry because I was afraid what you suggested would be taken as truth by readers here, and might influence new people against trying LC, which is currently doing very well indeed.

Hermann, I could name many things that have been added or fixed, but most of them don't involve areas you are involved with so you don't notice the progress. Swami, on the other hand, is delighted with the updates that involve his work which mostly depend on mobile display and execution. He told me he could never go back to LC 8. The improvements and additions allowed him to release a huge project to the Google Play Store and Apple's App Store.

When I needed a feature last year that didn't exist, I commissioned and paid the team to write it for me. Ian did a flawless job of it, and that's why Android apps now have access to NFC (and you'd have it for iOS too if Apple weren't so bullheaded about it.) Users got this for free in the community edition because my company essentially gave it to you.

As Heather mentioned, the team has been heads down in the LC FM project, which has been highly acclaimed by a whole new segment of the programming world. We've already seen new FM users here in the forums. This can't be a bad thing.

Again, I'm sorry for the comment I made, but I do request that members refrain from speculation. It's rarely correct and can do actual damage.

<shaking hands>

[[-hh]]

@Richard.
Please excuse my assumption that you are a shareholder. I concluded that from your arguing and the fact that you love LC-the company no matter what they are doing, like a father his children. I accept your lecture about that.

I've now waited a full year for LC improvements, getting only promises and no answers and nothing but promises and no answers.
(During this time I've published a lot of non-hello-world examples in LC Script, HTML5 and LC Builder. My last example was the only non-Community-edition example using a Indy-only feature. Where are all the non-hello-world LC examples in HTML5 and LC Builder?)

Now, rereading all the posts of this thread, there is also nothing mentioned but features that will be realized. We know, sadly, from the past that with LC this means: the features may be realized. Or disappear by simply increasing the version number.

"What do I care about the nonsense that I told yesterday." (Konrad Adenauer)

[Klaus]

I really really hope this all does not lead to a second "Casus Dr. M. Lange"!

[richmond62]

I do request that members refrain from speculation. It's rarely correct and can do actual damage.

I sometimes wonder what Forums are for if people are not free to say what they like?

Speculation? Without speculation we'd still all be living in caves.

"Damage": well, only if people are daft enough to read "mental exercise" as equal to "fact".

And, quite honestly, LiveCode should not need to be mollycoddled: either its stands
or falls on its own merits alone. And LiveCode has an awful lot of merits: one of the reasons
I am so often quite critical of the LiveCode development team or publicity team (and it
is unclear to me how far those intersect) is that I believe they often shoot themselves in
the collective foot by not communicating widely and in a way which is readily understood
about a wide variety of LiveCode-related topics, which, were they to do, would make a lot of
"long-haul" LiveCoders feel more positive about LiveCode's ongoing development, and up
the chances of a wider uptake among new programmers and folk getting cheesed off with
the likes of Python, C++, Visual B and so on.

[FourthWorld]

I do request that members refrain from speculation. It's rarely correct and can do actual damage.

I sometimes wonder what Forums are for is people are not free to say what they like?

Please. Think about that for just a second or two, and numerous examples come pouring into the mind, from the famous "yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded theater" example, to falsehoods that may constitute slander or libel, to the sort of provokatsiya currently affecting much of western discourse, or even promoting illegal or dangerous activity.

"What they like" is infinitely broad. This forum was not created as a philosophical exercise in exploring the outer boundaries of freedom of speech.

LiveCode Ltd. funds this forum to provide a user-to-user venue for people to learn about and get the most out of LiveCode. It's not that deep.

There are countless philosophy forums available for those with interest in such subjects.

"Damage": well, only if people are daft enough to read "mental exercise" as equal to "fact".

Perhaps it may be helpful if writers here flagged random speculation as such. When written boldly as though they could be claims of fact, passersby might mistake them as claims of fact.

And, quite honestly, LiveCode should not need to be mollycoddled: either its stands
or falls on its own merits alone.

LiveCode is a company, comprised of actual people. While I have no financial relationship with them, the bond I have is even more meaningful: many of them are my friends. I've shared whiskey under a desert sky with some of them more than once. The respect I have for them is higher than can be purchased with financial transactions; I like who they are as people.

So when a post implies that my friends are stupid, or lazy, or lying to me, I'm going to ask for proof or retraction.

If that's "mollycoddling", so be it. I wouldn't let anyone slander you either, or any other member of these forums.

These are support forums. I'd really prefer if we could get back to the work of supporting other users here, and leave the philosophy and ad hominem at the door.

Questions about the company are best directed to the company, reachable at support AT livecode.com.

Speculation about the company, its employees, or its friends is not related to providing support for Complete Beginners, where these comments were chosen for placement. If one insists on not directing to the company questions only the company can answer, and instead feels a burning desire to ask them only among people who cannot answer them, please at least show enough courtesy to have non-support discussions in the Off Topic forum.

We have a long history of uncommonly light forum moderation. I prefer to spend my time on more interesting tasks than moving posts around, and hope that the others here enjoy the range of things they're encouraged to discuss in these forums LiveCode Ltd pays for. Let's all please maintain professionalism in our communications so we can provide an enjoyable and productive experience for the thousands who pass through here looking to learn more about delivering software with LiveCode.

[bogs]

Can we shake hands all round now

I'm shaking mine all around, is it working?

<shaking hands>

Good, it IS catching on, although I now feel like I've been doing the hokey pokey half the day

[richmond62]

I'm shaking hands with anyone who wants to shake hands, although there seems to
be at least one person round these parts who'd rather shake a werewolf's paw.
-

-
AND . . . to return to the topic of the Use-List . . .

While it can be a "bother" insofar as, unless one bothers to check via a web-browser
(rather than an e-mail client), it can be difficult to see posts in context

as a way of thinking about that think about reading posts in this thread individually

it can be useful as, in my experience at least, people tend to come back with a solution to
a problem more rapidly than via the forums.

[bogs]

While it can be a "bother" insofar as, unless one bothers to check via a web-browser
(rather than an e-mail client), it can be difficult to see posts in context

Bob Sneidar was saying something very similar I noticed as I was testing out my little use list utility this morning since it is far enough along to get the threads by month, display the one linked in the lower field, and even launch the links in the lower field in a web browser.

Simple formatting....complete!

You both have a point, the use list would work a lot better if it stayed threaded. I don't know how he came to the conclusion that the forum had anything to do with anything on the use list though

*Edit - I don't think I ever was on a use list before, I'm pretty sure I went straight from bb boards to forums, but I find that even in threaded view, the threads seem to be a little jarring/confusing visually.

For instance (to my mind), seeing a thread displayed like this -

Code: Select all

•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  William Prothero 
	•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Bob Sneidar 
		•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Mark Wieder 
			•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Bob Sneidar  
			•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Martin Koob
	•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Bob Sneidar 
		•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org 
			•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Bob Sneidar  
			•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  William Prothero

...doesn't look as neat as if it were displayed like this

Code: Select all

•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  William Prothero 
	•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Bob Sneidar 
	•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Mark Wieder 
	•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Bob Sneidar  
	•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Martin Koob
	•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Bob Sneidar 
	•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org 
	•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  Bob Sneidar  
	•	Whoops: Getting the name of the script only stack an handler is in  William Prothero

I can see I'll be working a lot with the formatting part of this little thing

[bangkok]

My 2 cents (about the original subject) : the "use-list" is... a century old.

20th.

Forum is the modern way to go :

-more functions (search, pictures etc.)

-no redundant traffic by email

I understand that some people would regret it because of habits.... But from a rational point of view... it's pointless in 2019, even grotesque, it's difficult to use, it's extremely poor (functions) and graphically.

Which other modern and major software... still use a "mailing list" ?

If I say "Usenet"... Do you think people would take me seriously ? Young people would probably throw stones at me.

Technology is about adaptation (LC is a nearly perfect illustration of that)... in 2019 Usenet is absurd (does it still exist ???)... like any "mailing list" system.

And make no mistake : I too was downloading erotic pictures from alt.binaries... at the end of the 90's


Seriously : Livecode needs one place to meet and exchange, a forum like this one... Not 2 systems in parallel.

[bogs]

in 2019 Usenet is absurd (does it still exist ???)

Oh, I'd say it is still going strong

While I tend to prefer forums myself, I have no problems with people who prefer mail lists, and they do have benefits over forums.

For one thing, they load lightning fast in most cases, particularly because you don't have to parse a gazillion pictures some nerf-herder like myself stuck in

The formatting is clean to read (you don't need to worry some goofball like myself made the text GI-NORMUS for instance

If you like viewing it outside of a mail reader, there are always places like nabble that will digest it for you to some degree.

And lastly, it gives you the format in at least 3 different ways, by topic, date, or author right in your mailbox

While forums can also do that last one (at least, on site, not through an RSS if available), your stuck with whatever formatting is provided for the most part (aside from themes, which would be a whole different topic )

I also think that while if Lc were listed in only one place it might be convenient for some of us, it would limit exposure to the language by people other than us. Stack Overflow for instance is visited by a metric ton of people who are either already coding, or just learning to code. It makes sense to have a presence there to me, just like being able to deliver a meeting place in someone's personally preferred way to receive it makes sense to me.

Just a different point of view

[FourthWorld]

Seriously : Livecode needs one place to meet and exchange, a forum like this one... Not 2 systems in parallel.

They're both already set up and running fine, and there are many people who prefer each. Use what you prefer, and others will continue using what they prefer. AFAIK LC Ltd. has no plans to shut down either choice for the foreseeable future.

[FourthWorld]

I also think that while if Lc were listed in only one place it might be convenient for some of us, it would limit exposure to the language by people other than us. Stack Overflow for instance is visited by a metric ton of people who are either already coding, or just learning to code. It makes sense to have a presence there to me, just like being able to deliver a meeting place in someone's personally preferred way to receive it makes sense to me.

That's a key point. If email is somehow obsolete in 2019, the notion that any single company can or would even want to limit all aspects of customer discussion is arguably more so.

In addition to the valuable presence at Stack Overflow, we also have social media. There are multiple LC groups on Facebook, a very large but less active group on LinkedIn, numerous blogs, several language-specific forums around the web (Italian, German, Spanish, Chinese, maybe others), and more.

A thousand flowers will bloom as long as people are tilling the soil. What benefit is there in shutting any of them down? Not necessary, nor even desirable.

Imagine a world so lonely where there was only one place to discuss LC.

Any healthy ecosystem will organically see multiple venues for discussion. Once sufficiently successful, no single one of us can expect to be able to read all discussions about it.

[richmond62]

Personally, I like the Use-List and the Forums for slightly different reasons,
but Stack Overflow is not to my taste.

Isn't it lovely that there is that sort of choice for all sorts of people?

[[-hh]]

I thought about the definition of "freeloader" in this context.

• Probably this is meant for people who don't contribute in any financial or money worth way to LiveCode.
• But isn't a company who finances the development of a new branch by the license fees (and other "payments") for different products/features also a freeloader?

[bogs]

I dunno, my definition for a freeloader is one who takes and takes AND takes, but never returns anything. I have my wife's nephew that just just about sucked us dry while living in my wife's house for no rent for the last 6 years, and only covering a few minor bills. His responsibilities for this preferential situation were that he was supposed to maintain the house and change nothing.

Instead he let the place fall into disrepair to the tune of some 40k that we have so far shelled out, and changed all kinds of things that had to be set right again. If that wasn't enough, he has the gall to complain that we were taking advantage of HIM, just as Jacque pointed out

To me, that is a freeloader. I don't think you qualify.