Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:22 pm

Ed, your screenshot shows the LiveCode executable remaining after uninstall. That would of course be inappropriate after uninstall. If the executable remains after running the uninstaller from Windows' "Add/Remove Programs" tool in the Control Panel, you'll want to file a bug report on that.

As for the topic of this thread, which of the data files remaining after uninstall, aside from the Preferences file that's already been mentioned, do you believe is preventing the Dictionary from loading?

Given your confidence on this, I'm assuming you've already tested this and when you remove that file the Dictionary loads as expected, yes?

If not, have you considered the possibility that there may be something else which is preventing your Dictionary from loading?

Andy P's suggestion of trying v6.x is a good one, as the architecture of the Dictionary changed significantly after that. If the v6 Dictionary doesn't load the problem may be with the installation of the Dictionary's data files, but if the v6 Dictionary works well the problem is likely specific to the browser component's dependencies not being met on your system.
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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by jacque » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:00 pm

It may be that the dictionary is simply displaying offscreen. Try this from the message box:

Code: Select all

put there is a stack "revDictionary"
If the response is "true" then run this:

Code: Select all

set the loc of stack "revDictionary" to the screenloc
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw dot com
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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by Ed_Ray » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:16 am

For Andy;
its completely on topic because it is providing a possible solution to the problem that may be remedied by a COMPLETE uninstall and re-install of the app. Potential solutions to an issue are always on topic for that issue. Else you only have the expressed issues hanging in thin air.

As long as large footprints are left behind the more unlikely the dictionary will be reloaded upon re-installation since many apps don't do a full re-install when footprints are left behind.

This is similar to drivers that crashed as they were being installed. Without a full cleanup and re-install the driver will never work again.

Can I guarantee that this in fact will fix the issue? of course not. No one can guarantee their idea will fix the problem but based on my experience dealing with such issues with programmers on a daily basis with related metrics on hand to back it up, it has been found to work consistently 80% of the time. Should one not be pursing a high probability solution based on real work environments not based on academia or just lab experience? I think most would answer yes to that.

As far as pursuing your idea, yes. I have added it to a few other good recommendations I will be trying out this week. The holdup was getting enough good evidence to provide the bug report process for the other color missing issue.

Thank you, Your feedback is much appreciated.
Last edited by Ed_Ray on Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by Ed_Ray » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:38 am

For Fourthworld;

This snapshot was taken as soon as I finished uninstalling the app un-retouched.
So yes, it strange to have that remaining .exe still be there while all the other files needed for LC to come up are all correctly gone. Hmm, perhaps some sort of fluke? With time permitting I will look into it.

I can’t tell which of the items still remaining including all the registry foot prints could possibly be keeping a complete re-install from happening. It’s too difficult to attempt to do this manually that is why I am recommending a utility that will clean out ALL the footprints left behind so that you end up with a higher NOT a guaranteed probability (it’s all about a solution with a high level of probability) of finding the culprit since you end up with less things to examine.

At worst, you have a better chance of eliminating the problem module because you would eliminate the chance that the app blocked a new full install because it sees past foot prints that makes it feels everything does not need to be re-installed. If that happens and corruption remains you will never get the problem module to work again.

It’s like a driver crashing halfway installing. Unless you clean up what it left it’s almost impossible to get the driver to work. I am sure you have experienced something like this in your career, multi re-installs that never work until you completely clean up what the driver crash left behind.

You stated “Given your confidence on this, I'm assuming you've already tested this?

I can’t test it because too much stuff is left behind for me to figure out what to get rid for a next re-install to be successful. I am just basing my confidence on the high rate of success my software teams have exhibited with similar problems on a daily basis on many successful projects.

When I quoted typical 80% success rate for this type of problems when big footprints are left behind, this does not mean 100% success. Nobody can guarantee that their idea will fix the problem. I certainly won’t ever guarantee that my ideas will always work, no one can, but won’t it be wise to pursue high probability potential solutions based on real life experience?

You stated “have you considered the possibility that there may be something else which is preventing your Dictionary from loading?”

Absolutely! I have tried a myriad of other ways to fix this problem based on very experienced fellow professional advice and from information given in this forum and other related forums. The first thing I do when I get completely stuck is to seek out help from more experienced personnel or anybody that has subject matter real world experience. i have always said, No matter how experienced one thinks they are, they will always be someone that knows a little more (smile).

The issue is that I am being blocked from pursuing one particular high probability solution that I am suggesting because too much footprint is being left behind by LC. Meaning I will never know if my idea will work unless I can re-install to a completely clean system. If that does not work then it means the problem is elsewhere then I can try to pursue other avenues. It’s just frustrating when one is being blocked from pursuing a high probability solution. It’s all about high probability solutions. Does this make sense?

Regarding Andy’s idea it’s on a list of thing for me to try along with some other good ideas I saw postulated in the forum and other related software forums (I check other forums too for similar problems and how they were resolved).

What was holding me back is that I wanted to collect enough detailed and substantial evidence and information (see my recent post in the window to window funct lacking forum subject) to submit toward the bug report you were recommending for the color issue rather than just submitting a lame “I can’t do this or that” complaint and not providing anything of value for the folks that will be doing the HARD job of solving the problem. I told Andy I would definitely give his idea a try this week.

Thanks.

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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by LiveCode_Panos » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:40 pm

Hi Ed_Ray,

What do you get when you type in the msg box:

Code: Select all

put the httpProxy
Best,
Panos
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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by Ed_Ray » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:58 am

For panos;
typing "put the httpProxy" into the message box yields no output.
What in fact did you want to check for?


For Andy and Fourthworld;
Ran ver 6.x as per your recommendation. The dictionary came up. So according to Fourtworld this would means “is likely specific to the browser component's dependencies not being met on your system”.

Since the dictionary worked when first installed in LC ver 8.1 and none of my browsers have had any configuration changes (not even an update since the LC installation with the dict working), I am not sure what Fourthworld would like me to check as far as browser dependencies. Please advise.


For Jacque;
Regarding your recommendations:
"It may be that the dictionary is simply displaying offscreen. Try this from the message box:
put there is a stack "revDictionary"

If the response is "true" then run this:
set the loc of stack "revDictionary" to the screenloc"

You may have missed in one of the earlier posts that I stipulated that the empty dictionary stack attempts to come up where you can readily see it so it’s not off screen. It just says “not responding” when one clicks on the dictionary stack. Eventually you need to close the non-responding dictionary window and when you do, a dialog box says to close LC, so one gets nowhere.

Again, this happens in any ver of livecode 7.0 and above but works in ver 6.x etc.

For my own recommended solution;
Since I have no utility to completely clean out the huge LC footprints left behind I can never verify if the dict would come up normal if I can come up in a completely clean pre-installed environment.......

Its like a a windows restore point where files that should not be there anymore are STILL there. As long as that is true you are not in the same restored state you were when you first installed LC. Exactly the same principal. As long as you can't go back to that initial "pre-installed restore" state once any of LC modules stop working, it is unlikely the module (in this case the dictionary module) will work again unless one can find an EXACT fix to the problem or one returns to a clean pre-install state without needing to determine the exact problem.

My particular solution does not attempt to find the exact reason why the module stopped working. It may just be too hard to determine the exact problem at this point so the method just attempts to get back to a clean "restore" point to re-install from scratch again. When you do this there is a high probability of the dictionary coming back normal.

Thanks.

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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by FourthWorld » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:55 pm

This thread is long and complicated, covering a wide range of issues that may be related, and as far as I can tell may not.

It may be simplest to file a bug report on this issue of the Dictionary not opening on your system.

Please post the URL to the report here once you've filed it.
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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by jacque » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:20 pm

Panos asked about proxies to see if you had one. Apparently you don't. Fourthworld mentioned browser dependencies because the dictionary uses a built-in browser widget.

Which all reinforces my theory that your super fortified computer setup is blocking the dictionary's attempt to ping the outside world. You see it come up and then freeze.

I am quite sure it has nothing to do with the LC files on your hard drive, which have always lived compatibly with each other. It is more likely to be the state of lock down you've imposed on outside access.

LC 6 dictionary did not use a browser widget, which is why it runs for you.
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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by Ed_Ray » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:51 am

Jaque;
I have already previously installed ver 8.1 and used the dictionary just fine with my all my setups and security as is and I have not changed any of my browser setup, security, system, etc since that install. It just stopped working on its own.

In addition if I use a new hard drive that has no footprint left behind from LC 8.1 previous installation and use the same system, same browsers, same security same setups etc. The dictionary comes up fine so its nothing to do with my security or setup. If it were it would NEVER come up.

I even tested with programs that monitor in real time LC installs and I was correct. These real time monitors clearly show that If you don't come up from a clean install, LESS files are loaded in from subsequent LC installations than should normally be loaded with a fresh clean install (with no past footprints left behind).

What this means is until I get rid of the footprints I am never going to get a clean fresh install on that system. until that happens the corrupt dict module won't work on that system.

So in summary there are two ways to fix the problem:
[Fix case 1]
Someone determines why the dict module went bad (the ACTUAL source of the problem is determined). This would be great except no one so far has come up with the source issue.

[Fix case 2]
In this case you abandon trying to determine what actually caused the dict module to go bad. in this case you just want to be restored to the pristine state that had existed before LC was ever loaded on that system.

You completely remove any program debris left from a past install that has been proven to not load all the necessary data when past debris is encountered and start a completely fresh install like one would do on a new hard drive on the SAME system (same browser setup, same security etc, same everything).

So in case 2, you simply use the restore point principal. You bring back the system to the same state existing before the very first installation and viola the dictionary in most cases will come up just fine.

The only way this won't work is if you go back to that restored state and you determine other data that should not exist in that state does exist. In that case all bets are off since you have truly never returned to your necessary pristine state.

i will check a few more times to see if anybody has any other ideas. If not I will probably file an official bug report. Its just that the this may just be a waste of a filing because the problem is probably too complex to ever find the actual source and point of being reproducible. Believe me guys the restore point principal is so much easier at this point in time.

Why do this the hard way?

Thanks.

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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by Lagi Pittas » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:43 am

Hi ED,

I will GUARANTEE it is your setup - if it works everywhere else it is your setup. I have been in this game a long time pre apple 2 pre trs80 home build 6800 256 byte ram computer while at school
80% of problems are fixed by switching it off and on again. but with windows the obvious never is.

Case in point I had the Lazarus/Free pascal IDE on my machine everything worked EXCEPT in the last bit of a compile it gave an error.

I switched off sandbox, antivirus, firewall of COMODO security it did not work.

It ran perfectly on my laptop which had the same version of COMODO with sandbox and firewall running - cutting to the chase I had to REMOVE COMODO not switch it off.

It wasn't obvious , it didn't make sense but to paraphrase Sherlock Holme's said
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the problem" - It's simply elementary, my dear Ed.
Just because it worked then stopped working means nothing - I've had that so many times and I bet you too with other stuff which miraculously started working again and you don't know why - so you forget it ever happened.

It could be that a certain setting of Livecode has somehow got entangled with a setting somewhere else on your specific set on a certain day at a certain temperature and pressure - I jest but the fact that Window's runs at all with all the bloat and Cruft of years of patching is a miracle indeed - the fact that anything runs on windows is even more surprising.

When I'm programming and I can't work out why my program is not working as it should because it looks correct - 95% of the time it's the Data. When it comes to programs not running it's usually the setup/system as no two are EXACTLY the same even if they have been installed from scratch from a CD.

You have spent so much time but you haven't said if you have tried it on a brand new system , removed LC and reinstalled and see if it still works. If it works it's definitely interactions between all the programs on the system. If it doesn't then it is something LC left behind - but do you really have time to find it. Remember my suggestion last time , run the installation with the uninstaller watching so you know what it installs and it can remove everything - i've done that before with Sage accounts which does leave crap and I solved my problem.

Regards Lagi

p.s

I would think it would take less time to reformat your system and install everything than write all these beautifully manicured forum posts. Just trying to save you time and frustration not trying to rock the boat - try the install with REVO watching method if it worked for SAGE it'll work here.

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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:35 pm

1. When in doubt, remove the prefs file.
2. If that doesn't work please file a bug report.

Not filing a bug report for something you believe is a big is the one choice that will guarantee the team can't fix it.
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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by Lagi Pittas » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:35 pm

I beg to differ here Richard. If we all filed a report because somnething didn't work on OUR specific computer setup we would be doing nothing else.

If he is going to file a report then as I said Ed should remove LC as much as he can - reinstall using Revo Uninstaller in watch/capture mode ( I forget what they call it).

That will then create a snapshot file of ALL the changes that were made so that on removing it WILL remove EVERYTHING that was installed. I would do this for the last 3 or 4 versions of livecode at least 2 thew last one that worked consistantly, so that that it removes any historical registry/preferences.

Unless he does this he hasn't done all he can too help the team - they will be just wasting their time just my opinion, but nobody elkse has piped in to say they have the same problem ergo it's that specific setup.

... But I could be wrong :wink:

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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:08 pm

Lagi Pittas wrote:I beg to differ here Richard. If we all filed a report because somnething didn't work on OUR specific computer setup we would be doing nothing else.

If he is going to file a report then as I said Ed should remove LC as much as he can - reinstall using Revo Uninstaller in watch/capture mode ( I forget what they call it).

That will then create a snapshot file of ALL the changes that were made so that on removing it WILL remove EVERYTHING that was installed. I would do this for the last 3 or 4 versions of livecode at least 2 thew last one that worked consistantly, so that that it removes any historical registry/preferences.

Unless he does this he hasn't done all he can too help the team - they will be just wasting their time just my opinion, but nobody elkse has piped in to say they have the same problem ergo it's that specific setup.

... But I could be wrong :wink:
I agree your suggestion merits trying. But we've been round and round on this and the thread only gets longer.

Now and then over the years I've encountered folks who reject my suggestions, but will follow the same guidance when conveyed by a member of the core team. The first thing they devs will ask him to try is ditching the prefs file. That seemed a good place to start.

Beyond that they'll propose things that probably sound a lot like what you've been suggesting here. But that wasn't the first time you've suggested it, and we're all spending more time repeating ourselves here than would be needed to perform diagnostics, so I'm not sure how to get the diagnostics to happen.

Ultimately, fixing any technical problem in any system is a matter of identifying the differences between the working and non-working states. Your posts have provided a clear path for doing so. Yet here we are.....
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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by capellan » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:49 pm

Could a Dictionary stack posted by Bernd works in this setup?

In this forum thread, Bernd has posted many versions of a stack that shows all Dictionary entries, even a backscript that shows Dictionary contents in the message box: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=28731

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Re: Dictionary does not load in ANY ver of LC

Post by Ed_Ray » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:41 am

I am not sure why I had not thought about this all along, but in addition to using a sandbox for safely browsing the internet, it can be used to install and test dubious programs that may break ones system. Any “system” breakage/corruption. would be contained within the sandbox keeping ones system safe.

What had slipped my mind during this whole episode was that this is the perfect tool to prove my case because I could use it in the SAME PC system, SAME hard drive, SAME operating system, SAME secure hardware and software authenticated system state that previously denied the LC 8.1 dictionary from reloading.

Since a LC re-install inside a sandbox would never see any prior LC app left over debris still existing in my system, even though as specified this is happening in the SAME PC system, SAME hard drive, SAME operating system, SAME secure hardware and software authenticated system state.

Based on this, the dictionary should come up perfectly and in fact as predicted it came up PERFECTLY. Please see the attached word document (use google link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8fjB ... GVvR1FBcWs)
for the documented proof of concept, diagrams and conclusions.

Hopefully this should provide the needed impetus to resolve by the means specified in the conclusion not just for this particular issue but for most future issues involving corrupt LC modules (dictionary, script, properties dialog etc.) that need to be remedied but to find the exact source and fix proves too difficult and time consuming.

Thanks.

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