Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

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amthonyblack
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Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by amthonyblack » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:55 pm

First let me say that I am loving Livecode and am looking to dive in. I have dabbled in learning programming before, even completed some books on the subject, but nothing has ever clicked with me before reading the syntax for livecode. I can read livecode script and actually get how to put things together.

Still one thing gives me pause (and I am really hoping theres a rational explanation). I don't see very much commercially developed in it. I read how Livecode can create anything - windows apps, web apps even social networks! but no offense meant

All I see are mobile apps and very small gadgety apps. LIvecode developers have like three examples. A graphic novel, NASA using it in a support role and KLH. An example site with 101apps (or something like that) only confirmed a collection of utilities and gadgets.

This technology has been around for a bit and should be so easy and fast to develop for that the absence of desktop commercial programs or web services developed in it (as opposed to small apps) has me wondering if its any good for those things. Is that because a good deal of its capabilities were only added recently? Is it because there are severe limitations with doing anything really ambitious in it? (too slow perhaps). Is this a REAL language or something to introduce programming to people and for some hobby programs? Or maybe just an alternative to other android apps makers?

Thats not a bad thing mind you if it is just that but - to me at least - the code looks so different than VB or C# I fear it might actually hinder me making the switch to a real language (if Livecode is not one) when I am ready to take things to another level.

I'm hoping that there is some explanation because nothing really compares to the common sense straightforwardness I have seen in Livecode. RealBasic/XJ is billed by some as an alternative to Livecode in ease of use but being closer to VB I see it as nowhere near as concise and simple as Livecode. In fact if I have to pass on Livecode I might just ramp up and try VB.

I just don't want to get into Livecode and find out - oh so it really cannot do anything and that great idea I have just cannot be done in it . Where do the limitations lie? and if they do not exist why is it there is so little done in it over the years especially for desktop and the web?

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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by dhurtt » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:31 am

Have you looked at Quartum's blog? http://quartam.blogspot.com/ They have some sophisticated data analytics for Livecode developers.

How about the Livecode apps blog? http://livecode1001.blogspot.com/ That gives you a better idea on just what people are showcasing. Only interested in the commercial stuff? Try: http://livecode1001.blogspot.com/search ... Commercial

Canela Software (http://www.canelasoftware.com) apparently developed some of their business applications in Livecode. I don't know if it was all of them or not, but at one Livecode conference they showed a spreadsheet which I found inspiring: http://www.canelasoftware.com/pub/sales.xls

The areas where I might be concerned that Livecode cannot do something is for the less common native APIs, any systems-level programming, etc. For iOS limitations, for example, simply download the release notes and see what it currently can and cannot do. (But understand that it keeps expanding with each release.)

So, what is it that you want to do that you are worried it cannot?

Regards,

Dale

P.S. I had the same concerns.

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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:33 am

amthonyblack wrote:...- the code looks so different than VB or C# I fear it might actually hinder me making the switch to a real language (if Livecode is not one) when I am ready to take things to another level.
I've worked in Assembler, Pascal, C, C++, VB, Perl, LiveCode, JavaScript, and others. I've seen many different types of languages, but what do you mean by "real language"? Are you referring to RealBASIC, or something else?
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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by dunbarx » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:19 am

Richard.

Goes back to HC. Just not a "real" language. Too simple and intuitive.

Anthony.

HC suffered from the limitations of its day. It had to run on a 1 MB machine in the beginning. Oh, and Apple never really thought much of it. LC is another story entirely, capable of almost anything, and yet still looks like it is not "real". I think this is a prejudice. And though I understand it, I urge you strongly to embrace it. If, one day you find that there is something that cannot be made here, let us know about it, and Godspeed. Bet you that day never comes...

Craig Newman

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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by Dixie » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:21 am

anthonyBlack…

A lot of people are developing ‘apps’ for phones and tablets on both iOS and Android and a lot of the time using the same code base to deploy onto the different platforms… With the increase in sales of tablets versus the slowing of desktop and laptop computers, people are moving where they think the money is…

People are still using ‘liveCode’ to develop for the desktop… I know a couple who have written front ends to their databases that their mobile apps use, both ends of the problem using ‘liveCode’ to solve it…

Mobile apps are easy to showcase in the iTunes store and google play. It is much harder to showcase desktop applications that developers have written for their clients… and if they are anything like the clients I have they don’t want others to know about the software that they have had developed for themselves…

You will probably at the moment be limited more by your ‘liveCode’ skills than by anything that you can think of that liveCode can’t do… and no, I’m not saying that it is the best tool for everything that you might want to accomplish, but that argument applies to all the other languages out there

What do you mean by ambitious ?…

Dixie

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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by amthonyblack » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:25 am

dhurtt wrote: The areas where I might be concerned that Livecode cannot do something is for the less common native APIs, any systems-level programming, etc. For iOS limitations, for example, simply download the release notes and see what it currently can and cannot do. (But understand that it keeps expanding with each release.)
...........P.S. I had the same concerns.
DH thanks...I've seen much of that. I have looked around a good deal before asking. I don't see anything different. I'll get to what I mean in a moment but first some housekeeping
dunbarx wrote:Richard.

Goes back to HC. Just not a "real" language. Too simple and intuitive.
..............I think this is a prejudice.
The whole tone of your post was defensive and dismissive. If not for more reasonable responses I would have thought I stepped on a nerve. I won't hold it against the board. its a common internet forum thing that when someone sees a person who has one post that at least one person thinks its their excuse to reveal themselves as a jerk and/or do mind reading . Get a grip. It has NADA to do with hypercard. I read about hypercard only when I was hearing about livecode (Did I not post this in the beginner's section?????). Frankly have no idea what it is or was. Its rather obvious if you think about it.

You see a very intuitive programing language thats been around a while and you think goodness. its fantastic and so easy that people should be killing it with new ideas and pushing out those ideas in record time. You hear claims that it can create anything web , windows or Mac and you say woah you've missed it for years and so you look for apps in those areas that they say it can do things in and lets face it even the company that develops it doesn't point to all that much

Now if you want to be all defensive about it like i slapped your five year old daughter then be my guest. But at some point when you wipe the froth from the sides of your lips it might dawn on you that IT WAS A QUESTION not a declaration that it was too simple and intuitive. learn to read :roll: - I hope it is as powerful as claimed.

okay with that out of the way - Heres what I mean. Lets say desktop

Go to the 101 livecode blogspot page and tell me - are not most of those utilities and small apps? I mean be honest here. Is anyone buying those and saying ooh I can't wait for version 2 to upgrade?

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON LIVECODE (not a caps person but seems like I needed to emphasize this)

People know what is possible with C#, VB etc because you can look at all kinds of powerful programs built in it. Would proponents of C# or VB like MS point to the apps on the 101 livecode site as their gallery entries of all that say Visual studio is capable of? even from "shareware" apps? All I am simple ASKING is are there some limitations why we do not see that caliber of desktop programs created on Revolution/Live code? I could say the same thing for web as well. I've seen so me references to Myst from long ago but we have come along way from that and that today would be nothing much more than an interactive novel

I'll try another way of getting at this. Common saying in programming is

"use the tool that best fits the job?"

What kind of jobs would you not do with livecode ? What are the limitations that a beginner should be aware of? when people say you can build anything with it and you only see some basic apps it makes you wonder. simple - not attack just a very legit question from someone new to Livecode and yes relatively new to programming.

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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by amthonyblack » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:58 am

Dixie wrote: People are still using ‘liveCode’ to develop for the desktop… I know a couple who have written front ends to their databases that their mobile apps use, both ends of the problem using ‘liveCode’ to solve it…
Thanks dixie. When you say "still" though its like thats not a standard use anymore. You point is valid about mobile apps however right now apps tend to be more simple than desktop applications (There are of course exceptions). I guess one of the things I just wanted to know if that was an inherent limitation of livecode why the focus is there.
Mobile apps are easy to showcase in the iTunes store and google play. It is much harder to showcase desktop applications that developers have written for their clients… and if they are anything like the clients I have they don’t want others to know about the software that they have had developed for themselves
Livecode programmers only do custom jobs and not develop desktop apps for resale?
What do you mean by ambitious ?…
Fair enough. lets go to the web side of things and use the social network that is said on livecode one could build. That would be quite ambitious particularly if it had thousands if not tens of thousands of users. For desktop I guess we could go the download dot c-om and pick a popular program. I am talking about commercial applications of use to the general public not custom business apps for business which tend to have very limited scope.

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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:12 am

Welcome aboard, Anthony.

No doubt by now you've followed the links above and expanded your own Web searches, so you've seen some examples of the breadth of things LiveCode has successfully been used for.

It may be helpful to note that LC has been around long before smartphones were invented. Since 1992, in fact. So yes, it can be used well to make a wide range of desktop apps.

Given the broad scope of things LC has been successfully used to build, it may be more helpful to approach this question from the other direction: What would you like to build?
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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by Dixie » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:26 am

anthonyBlack...

My explanation regarding people 'still' using liveCode for desktop apps was a bad one... sorry for that... there are plenty of people using liveCode on the desktop but at the moment it seems that there are an awful lot of people coming to liveCode because they wish to write just mobile apps and this is reflected in the number of posts you see on this forum for iOS and Android.

I wouldn't try and write a 'photoShop' or a 'Final Cut' application using liveCode.... on the gaming side 'liveCode' needs a decent physics engine to come up to par with what development apps like 'Corona' can produce, but having said that there has been some work done by John Craig who has written a 'game engine' in liveCode, some of the results you can see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_716ei8WOo ...on the 'social' side of things doing a 'snapChat' type app would not be a problem for liveCode...( I'm laughing, as I am waiting for the responses from others who might be lurking reading this thread.. :D ) The biggest problem is coming up with the idea of the 'next killer app', rather than the vehicle you would use to take it down the road...

But you have found 'liveCode', it has an initial learning curve that can seem fairly steep, but once over that first peak, your knowledge of the syntax and how to apply it will come on in leaps and bounds on the downhill run... What have you got to lose ?... You can use the free 'community' edition to hone your skills.. :-)
Last edited by Dixie on Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by amthonyblack » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:34 am

FourthWorld wrote:Welcome aboard, Anthony.

No doubt by now you've followed the links above and expanded your own Web searches, so you've seen some examples of the breadth of things LiveCode has successfully been used for.
Nope..I haven't.....you must have not been reading......Like I said I had seen most all those links before.
It may be helpful to note that LC has been around long before smartphones were invented. Since 1992, in fact. So yes, it can be used well to make a wide range of desktop apps.
Thats why I asked what I asked. In the entire time I have read about LC being around the only commercial desktop application I have read about is Myst and I think that was in the Hypercard days. In all those years, with such a simple language - capable it is purported to build anything - does LC not have a better gallery to show off what it can do? I'm beginning to think there is no good answer.
Given the broad scope of things LC has been successfully used to build, it may be more helpful to approach this question from the other direction: What would you like to build?
No.. I can't do that. As I have indicated my interests are in commercial resale. it would make no sense to detail those out on a public forum. I have already indicated though as asked what I meant by ambitious. You can work with that if you wish.

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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by amthonyblack » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:04 am

Dixie wrote:anthonyBlack...

My explanation regarding people 'still' using liveCode for desktop apps was a bad one... sorry for that...
No need to apologize my lady. You've been the most gracious responder
there are plenty of people using liveCode on the desktop but at the moment it seems that there are an awful lot of people coming to liveCode because they wish to write just mobile apps and this is reflected in the number of posts you see on this forum for iOS and Android.
Okay that would make sense. Its all the rage now. Gold rush kind of thing. In fact that would go along way to explaining it (only caveat is that LC has been around awhile as just pointed out to me.)
I wouldn't try and write a 'photoShop' or a 'Final Cut' application using liveCode.... on the gaming side 'liveCode' needs a decent physics engine to come up to par with what development apps like 'Corona' can produce, but having said that there has been some work been done by John Craig who has written a 'game engine' in liveCode, some of the results you can see here ...on the 'social' side of things doing a 'snapChat' type app would not be a problem for liveCode...( I'm laughing, as I am waiting for the responses from others who might be lurking reading this thread.. :D ) The biggest problem is coming up with the idea of the 'next killer app', rather than the vehicle you would use to take it down the road...
Dixie Thank you!! You get it. No attack on livecode whatsoever and that answer of not having the next killer app idea along with most people doing android apps does go along way to giving a possible explanation. Two questions if you would entertain them

Why wouldn't you do a Final Cut application using livecode? Not entertaining anything that sophisticated and that would I think not be a project for a small team with any language but perhaps because we might finally be alluding to where the limitations of livecode might come in?

Also in regard to social - is the web side of it it capable of handling a real social network (not a social app). Its been very difficult to really assess the web side of things (even less examples). Enterprise level or small business web apps? expected performance in regard to hundred or thousands of users etc.
What have you got to lose ?... You can use the free 'community' edition to hone your skills.. :-)
Time my lady. I am getting into the programming game late in life (40s) as the brain cells begin to slow down. Most of my life I have had no problems with the ideas but due to responsibilities and an already profitable business I could not get to the point of learning what I needed to make them a reality. I'd hate to hit a dead end since the way life is it might be my last stab at programming and with livecode's different approach and syntax it could be my dead end if it really can't do everything it claims. Its very different to me than C# or VB. At least with something like Xojo if I did hit a dead end I feel like it would be easier to shift to VB (and hence be part of the journey not a roadblock). I really like Livecode though and I dont see the learning curve as anywhere near the other languages,

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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by dunbarx » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:18 am

Anthony.

I do not intend to overwork this. but I found your post far more inflammatory than whatever you thought was contained in mine. I don't really see what you thought at all, actually. But whatever it was, you missed both my point and my personality. You did say "real" language...

It is a long-standing issue with x-talks that they are not perceived as "real". Part of this is because they are so high level that they cannot address some of the capabilities of the underlying hardware. in fact, more mainstream procedural languages are required to do this sort of thing. LC is written in C, after all. The other part does touch on the very structure of x_talks, "scripts" instead of methods, all originating in 1987, rankling some programmers as they dismiss the entire paradigm as hobby-level.

This is silly on the face of it. i wonder if the true geniuses of long ago, microprogrammers and eight-switch/eight-light wunderkinde, would have made the same complaint about assemblers.

Or compilers after them.

Or interpreters after them.

Or dynamically typed english-like scripted IDE's.

Oh yes, there is indeed a defensiveness running through this; it is a long standing subject of interest among us old-timers. But none of that has anything to do with you. I don't even know you.

Craig

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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:44 am

amthonyblack wrote:
FourthWorld wrote:Welcome aboard, Anthony.

No doubt by now you've followed the links above and expanded your own Web searches, so you've seen some examples of the breadth of things LiveCode has successfully been used for.
Nope..I haven't.....you must have not been reading......Like I said I had seen most all those links before.
Clearly I'm just not understanding what you're looking for. I hope you find it.
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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by Dixie » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:53 am

AnthonyBlack…

liveCode has a lot of things coming to it, in its stretch goals, after the success of the ‘kickstarter’ campaign last year that brought in a shed load of money to take ‘liveCode’ to being an open source platform… have a look at … http://livecode.com/community/roadmap/…. to see what is coming, including a physics engine for the ‘gamers’ amongst the liveCode community… much of it is very late being delivered as it was promised by August 2013 … and here we are :-)

liveCode does not have the computational speed required to power an application like a ‘Final Cut’ app, but there again, not many languages do… it lies in the realms of ‘C’…

The web side of liveCode is excellent, with that there is no problem… being able to use liveCode on the desktop and also to use liveCode in .lc scripts server side is a great pleasure… the .lc scripts are really a substitute for php… Yes, liveCode server side scripting is good.…and Yes, liveCode is more than capable of handling a real ‘social network’ with thousands of users…

and now I’m smiling… I have been called ‘Dixie’ for as long as I can remember, since my school days anyway, but don’t feel bad… this happens now and again

Mr John Dixon… :D

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Re: Whaat is Livecode realy good for besides mobile apps???

Post by amthonyblack » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:56 am

dunbarx wrote:Anthony.

I do not intend to overwork this. but I found your post far more inflammatory than whatever you thought was contained in mine. I don't really see what you thought at all, actually.
Well let me spell it out for you in spades. In my neck of the woods and almost all of society when someone asks a question of someone else as richard did to me. it is brash, rude and arrogant to presume to answer on their behalf as if you can answer with mind reading for the other person. So in short I do not care a wit what you consider more inflammatory. You were rude and dismissive like you knew where I was coming from. Bad form.
But whatever it was, you missed both my point and my personality. You did say "real" language...
So what? I also made pains to say IF runtime was not a real language not that it was. Read before engaging the emotion motor. Are you so emotionally bent that if someone uses the word real in a question you have to translate that as a statement? IF that was what Richard was getting at then there would appear to be somewhat of an inferiority complex around here. He used the word real in a question....oh no........He must be referring to REALbasic.
It is a long-standing issue with x-talks that they are not perceived as "real". Part of this is because they are so high level that they cannot address some of the capabilities of the underlying hardware. in fact, more mainstream procedural languages are required to do this sort of thing. LC is written in C, after all. The other part does touch on the very structure of x_talks, "scripts" instead of methods, all originating in 1987, rankling some programmers as they dismiss the entire paradigm as hobby-level.
all of which does not matter a hill of beans because I have never been a part any longstanding issue. ALl you are confirming is that you entered the conversation with prejudice. You ignored every thing but what you thought you were hearing. Anyone could have read me say that I loved the language, hope it was powerful as advertised and want to be able to use it. You filtered all of that out based on me....oh no,,,using the word real or was that I mentioned Xojo in passing too?
Oh yes, there is indeed a defensiveness running through this; it is a long standing subject of interest among us old-timers. But none of that has anything to do with you. I don't even know you.

Craig
Great then remember that the next time and don't try to answer questions for me or someone you have never met. Heres the thing with over defensiveness. Most times its because at least some of what they are defensive of is true. So when someone gets so defensive it only serves to highlight that a nerve might have been touched.

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