Hints of Cocoa

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Simon
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Re: Hints of Cocoa

Post by Simon » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:15 am

@Rolf, I'm a bit confused by this
...specially buttons do not look like real OSX buttons !
Do you know that you can use graphics to make buttons of any look? Sure it's not drag 'n drop, does Xcode have it? Check out www.tactilemedia.com for cool examples of buttons in liveCode.

@John
...normal behavior, such as spell checking,...
I just typed "fribble the docknid" into Text Edit, no spell checking there, it's got to be one of the most "normal" applications on a Mac.

Simon
I used to be a newbie but then I learned how to spell teh correctly and now I'm a noob!

tellboy
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Re: Hints of Cocoa

Post by tellboy » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:27 am

Simon wrote:I just typed "fribble the docknid" into Text Edit, no spell checking there, it's got to be one of the most "normal" applications on a Mac.
I'm sorry but you are wrong here. Check the preferences in TextEdit.

I started to type "how do i check color as I type" and it immediately underlined it then changed color to colour as you'd expect here in the UK.


All the best

Terry

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Re: Hints of Cocoa

Post by Klaus » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:58 pm

Hi Simon,
Simon wrote: Do you know that you can use graphics to make buttons of any look?
sure, but that is not the problem!

On OS X all controls look a lot like they are native, but they aren't!
There are tiny differences, and they are visible!

Another example: List fields!
On Windows the selected text turns in fact white, but does not on OS X!
Will check if that has been already bug-reported of "enhancement requested".
Simon wrote:I just typed "fribble the docknid" into Text Edit, no spell checking there, it's got to be one of the most "normal" applications on a Mac.
I think this is a system-wide setting for this.
Since this is really taking my nerves, this was the first thing I turned off :D


Best

Klaus

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Re: Hints of Cocoa

Post by Klaus » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:23 pm

FYI:
I just made an enhancement request to get at least WHITE selected text in a list field and TAB buttons 8)
http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11912

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Re: Hints of Cocoa

Post by tellboy » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:44 pm

Thanks Klaus and seconded.

I am not bothered about any other colour, just want the emulation to match OSX.

This is one of the advantages of using native controls. If Apple decide to change the look, you get it automatically.

I did manage to correct the issue of black instead of white by Opening Xcode, creating a tab and screen grabbing it, then copy it into LC and overlaying a button.

Fancy having to do this sort of thing in a development environment that is supposed to be easy to use :roll:

In addition, another pet hate of mine is popupmenu's that do not show ellipses when the text is to long for the buttons, please can we have ... automatically instead of having to write a method to overcome another deficiency. Another problem caused by emulation.

Surely it is easier to implement native controls, rather than inventing your own wheel to copy them :roll:

Perhaps someone should start a thread where all the emulation deficiencies can be listed?

All the best

Terry

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Re: Hints of Cocoa

Post by paul_gr » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:42 pm

tellboy wrote: Fancy having to do this sort of thing in a development environment that is supposed to be easy to use :roll:
I think the main attraction of using Livecode is to make cross platform apps, not necessarily be easier to use.
If I was only using one platform I would probably not be using Livecode.
I'd use another IDE that might be bit more difficult to use but deliver apps that looked and felt right on my platform of choice.
Native controls are sometimes required on Windows , Linux and Android as well as on Mac's and iOS...
Livecode does a remarkable job, but I doubt that full native controls across all platforms can ever be delivered. Apple and Microsoft like their platforms to look different, and they will keep changing the way their apps look. Livecode will always be playing catchup to some extent. All of the cross platform competitors of Livecode work the same way.

Paul

tellboy
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Re: Hints of Cocoa

Post by tellboy » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:34 am

paul_gr wrote:not necessarily be easier to use.
The front page of RunRev.com says and I quote.
Programming made simple
This is what RunRev want their customers/potential customers to believe. If you have to jump through hoops to make RunRev's emulation work then it is not simple.

Anyway, what should be simple, is to get the emulation correct. In the Look and Feel menu of the LC IDE mine is set to Native Theme and although it bears a passing resemblance to OS X, there are to many errors.

Here is part of the definition of emulate:
imitate with effort to equal or surpass
And RunRev don't sell the product on the basis of it only being suitable for cross platform. In fact a number of their examples are based on companies who have built their in-house product for deployment across their company. For these companies their deployment strategy is probably to one platform.


All the best

Terry

markw
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Re: Hints of Cocoa

Post by markw » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:16 pm

I've evaluated and used a lot of cross-platform tools (CPTs) and fully native controls only work in the context of "thin wrapper" CPTs where you have to re-write your UI for each platform but can share back-end code (e.g. Xamarin). Native controls on different platforms have different APIs and so you can only be fully cross-platform with a single API for developers by targeting the lowest common denominator. What happens then, in every case I've ever seen is that you swap look and feel accuracy for functional inconsistency across platforms. The latter is a source of horrible bugs and infinitely worse than slightly inaccurate control look and feel.

Since LiveCode is open source, supports externals and has a 3rd party marketplace for components, there are lots of options:
1) The community can improve the theming support for their favourite platforms.
2) Someone can build and sell wrapped versions of the native controls as externals.
3) Someone can build better emulations of the native components.

To enable the LiveCode visual programming environment to be cross-platform they can only realistically have an emulation model. FWIW the most successful high-end CPTs use the emulation strategy e.g. Qt, which is used by Adobe to create several of their apps.

pthirkell
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Re: Hints of Cocoa

Post by pthirkell » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:12 am

Mag wrote:As a developer of applications for the Mac, I think that what it is really miss in current version of LC are:

1. Toolbars (each application for Mac has one) and
2. In-App-Purchase (the dominant model of distribution)

I don't know if thanks to the Cocoa porting these two gaps will be filled. I hope so.
I would like to echo this request.

shawnblc
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Re: Hints of Cocoa

Post by shawnblc » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:10 am

pthirkell wrote:
Mag wrote:As a developer of applications for the Mac, I think that what it is really miss in current version of LC are:

1. Toolbars (each application for Mac has one) and
2. In-App-Purchase (the dominant model of distribution)

I don't know if thanks to the Cocoa porting these two gaps will be filled. I hope so.
I would like to echo this request.
Toolbars and in app purchases would be sweeeeet!

shaosean
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Re: Hints of Cocoa

Post by shaosean » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:52 am

Been a while since I have been on the forums, but for some reason I dropped by today and just wanted to reply to this thread..

In regards to the native controls, I moved to Xojo (formerly RealStudio (formerly REALbasic)) and they use native controls and you do not have to do anything different for the platforms (well, some window managers on Linux require a small height increase for a few controls, but no need to have a separate GUI for them)..

In the current engine, using the current externals sdk, creating native controls on the windows does not work.. I am aware of the hoops that revBrowser jumps through to work, but that hack does not work for adding toolbars to the windows.. Before I stopped developing in Rev, I was working on a toolbar external but had to handle all the mouse events and try to make it work like the system toolbars (using Rev 2.8 I could just let the system handle everything and it worked nicely).. I was also working on an in-app purchases external, but with the engine being open source and the in-app purchase code for iOS is so similar to the Mac App Store, someone should just jigger that to work..

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