LC 8: How many bugs is too many ?

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trevix
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LC 8: How many bugs is too many ?

Post by trevix » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:53 pm

First, let me state that I admire the LC people for how good they are at their work. I cannot even think on how complex must be to develop and maintain a programming language so versatile.

Second, I have been using LC for about 10 years with great satisfaction, but I never programmed in other languages (c++, Java, Html, etc) except for Filemaker scripting. So I am not fully competent on what I am going to say.

My point is that I think LC 7 and 8 are getting too bugged and this defeat their purpose of a programming language that should have an easy learning curve.
And these are my reasons:

1) LC 5.5, as I remember, rarely had crash and structural bugs.
2) While I cannot valuate the current number of bugs (LC8.1.1.RC1 has today 3262 confirmed bugs) I think many of them are too fundamental for a development environment.
3) I believe that, in the panorama of multi purpose Applications, a development environment (LC) should be "really" stable and have an much smaller number of bugs. Because of its own nature.
4) I am working on a Stack that uses a lot of what LC offers, but I find my self more and more checking the Quality Control Center, because I don't understand if the bugs I find are originated by my poor scripting or are LC bugs (and often are LC bugs). This is incredibly time consuming.
5) I feel that the introduction of more and more features, has gone to the expense of the original purpose: a "language designed to be expressive, readable, memorable and as close as possible to the way you speak and think."
6) the integration of mobile development has never been completed in my opinion, with commands and functions often having the same purpose, but named differently according to the platform.
7) Also the graphic of the UI has never been completely ported to all platforms. Two examples for all: the progress bar and the check box (why should I script the creation of a check box or radio buttons on mobile? And if a check box is not meant for mobile [who says so?], why is it in the tool palette?)

And I could go on...

So, this is what I am asking: stop new features, simplify and integrate commands and functions, fix the graphic interface and make LC as stable as PhotoShop. That's all :-)
Thanks
Trevix
Trevix

FourthWorld
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Re: LC 8: How many bugs is too many ?

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:15 pm

What are the bug report numbers for the issues you reported? I'm not seeing most of those issues myself, but if I can try the recipes you submitted I may be able to also provide some additional diagnostic info to speed them a little faster towards resolution.
Richard Gaskin
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Re: LC 8: How many bugs is too many ?

Post by jameshale » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:37 pm

2) While I cannot valuate the current number of bugs (LC8.1.1.RC1 has today 3262 confirmed bugs) I think many of them are too fundamental for a development environment.
Not sure where you got your figure from but doing a search on everything not 'awaiting build' or better and restricting the search to lc8.00gm or better the database lists 384 items of which 109 are enhancement requests.

trevix
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Re: LC 8: How many bugs is too many ?

Post by trevix » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:41 am

Jameshale:
Sorry. My mistake. I was assuming the list being updated (for example bug 1111 relates to version 2.1.2 !!!) and I did not limit it to LC8 because i think many bugs are reported on 7 and reviewed as being 8 too. Also, did not know how to skip enhancement requests.

FourthWord:
Thanks, but this was not my point. The bug report team is very supportive and most of the problems find a solution while waiting for the bugs fix. But come on: copy and past of objects, the Project browser, Specialfolderpath on Windows, script that stops executing without reporting anything, refreshing problems.
As I said, I wasn't talking about few specific bugs, but the overall "walking on eggs" sensation I get using LC8.
I hope to have made clear that I wanna be constructive.

Trevix (from Italy, where we have "real" problems, not LC related)
Trevix

ClipArtGuy
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Re: LC 8: How many bugs is too many ?

Post by ClipArtGuy » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:44 am

For what it's worth, I am not experiencing any problems copying and pasting objects, with specialfolderpath or project browser in windows using LC 8.1 stable. In my experience 8.1 has been more stable for me than any of the 7.x series.

trevix
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Re: LC 8: How many bugs is too many ?

Post by trevix » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:38 am

specialfolderpath: bug 18295
copy and paste: on OS X that's not the case
Project Browser: On Windows 7, for example, try this:

1) Launch LC 8.1.1RC1 and create a new stack
3) open the Project Browser and, on the prefs, order the controls by number ascending
4) create a button on the card and group it
6) create a field on the card, select both the field and the group and group them
7) on the project browser unfold everything
8) on the project browser change the controls order to name descending

Result: the Project Browser is empty (on OS X also) and you need to reopen it.
Should I report this? Probably but I am already spending too much time on reporting bugs (and creating examples). And probably someone has already reported it because, on a serious use, the Project Browser is really shaky...

Regards
Trevix
Trevix

LiveCode_Panos
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Re: LC 8: How many bugs is too many ?

Post by LiveCode_Panos » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:11 pm

Hi Trevix,

Regarding the Project Browser issue, there is a similar bug report. I have added your alternative recipe to the report. In case anyone wants to track the progress on this issue, here is the report:

http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18341

Best,
Panos
--

PS: I think it is unfair to compare LC 5.5 with LC 8.x. LC 8 has far more features and capabilities, and since it is more complex, it is likely to have more bugs. Moreover (and more importantly), each user has a unique way of using LC, and this is why some people find LC 8 more stable than older LC versions while others don't. We (in LiveCode Ltd) are a small team and we do whatever is possible to make LC better, more stable and extensible. Adding new features is essential to ensure the platform continuation. But it is impossible to try and test every possible combination. This is why it is really important if a user finds a bug to report it asap. Then we will try to fix it asap.

ClipArtGuy
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Re: LC 8: How many bugs is too many ?

Post by ClipArtGuy » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:04 am

Trevix,
I didn't mean to imply that you weren't experiencing bugs, just that I have found 8.1 to be fairly stable in my experience. I started using LC as version 5.5, and for me the transition from 7.x to 8.x has been far more smooth than it was from 5.x to 6.x and 6.x to 7.x I don't use the resources folder on windows, so I hadn't experienced that specialfolderpath bug. As for the project browser, I can confirm that your recipe does indeed break the project browser on my Windows 10 machine in LC 8.1

I was going to recommend the old application browser, but it appears to have been removed, or hidden?

Lately I've been doing most of my development on a Linux machine (a platform that has come a long way since 5.5) and then do final testing and saving as standalone on a Windows machine. If this is an option for you, I highly recommend it - the project browser is unaffected by this bug.

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Re: LC 8: How many bugs is too many ?

Post by FourthWorld » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:22 am

ClipArtGuy wrote:Trevix,
I didn't mean to imply that you weren't experiencing bugs, just that I have found 8.1 to be fairly stable in my experience. I started using LC as version 5.5, and for me the transition from 7.x to 8.x has been far more smooth than it was from 5.x to 6.x and 6.x to 7.x
Same here. I did find some bugs in early 8.x builds, but I reported them and they were fixed. Given the many advantages of v8.1 - the smarter OS appearance themes are super! - I've been pretty happy with it.
I was going to recommend the old application browser, but it appears to have been removed, or hidden?
Still available, just moved to the Plugins folder.
Richard Gaskin
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LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

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