Why Forums? What about the List?

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Lynn
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Why Forums? What about the List?

Post by Lynn » Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:11 pm

The honorable Robert Brenstein asks:

"Are the forums intended to replace this list or as an additional service?"

Not quite either, but forums are a superior solution for what Runtime would like to provide:

-An environment where users can more easily locate sub-communities and topics they are interested in, rather than a general community

-An environment where abusive comments, warez/cracks/serials, NDA violations and other undesireable language can be excised more easily

-An easier way to categorize and allow some threads to persist that are extremely useful to learners

So what about the lists? They are being more strictly evaluated based on the three concerns above. Very long term lists tend to acquire cultures of their own and a different kind of persistence that can be detrimental to both the company sponsoring it and also impede new users wanting to learn more.

Best regards,


Lynn Fredricks
Worldwide Business Operations
Runtime Revolution, Ltd

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Post by BvG » Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:13 pm

Ha, finally someone who agrees with me at runrev, on the topic of forums. :)
Various teststacks and stuff:
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malte
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Post by malte » Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:23 pm

I also prefer forums. A forum has so many advantages over a list server. But I think it is also a matter of taste. It might be worth a thought to think about installing the list to forum bridge add on for phpBB, for those who prefer lists. This would avoid forcing list users to change their habits and would also avoid a community split.

Just my 2 € cent

All the best,

Malte

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Post by marielle » Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:38 pm

Thanks for these forums. They are great. I already tried out the poll option. Great feature!

Lynn
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Post by Lynn » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:14 am

marielle wrote:Thanks for these forums. They are great. I already tried out the poll option. Great feature!
Thanks :-) Polls are great! Also, there are huge numbers of mods for phpBB systems that I hope we can add a few of.

I like having several options for communications. In time what Id really like to do is add a chat channel to each one, but shhhhhh, I havent said anything to Kevin about it yet ;-)

Best regards,


Lynn Fredricks
Worldwide Business Operations
Runtime Revolution, Ltd

FrankR
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Post by FrankR » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:14 pm

Another thank you for these forums. This is a far better way to do it.

vamp07
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Post by vamp07 » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:14 pm

Great Move. Finally a forum. My only concern is I thought phpBB allowed for RSS subscribing?

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Re: Why Forums? What about the List?

Post by see3d » Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:35 am

Lynn wrote: forums are a superior solution for what Runtime would like to provide:

-An environment where users can more easily locate sub-communities and topics they are interested in, rather than a general community

-An environment where abusive comments, warez/cracks/serials, NDA violations and other undesireable language can be excised more easily

-An easier way to categorize and allow some threads to persist that are extremely useful to learners
Thank you RunRev for making these forums available. I hope they add a lot of value for the user community and for RunRev. Congratulations on the launch. :D

Dennis Brown

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Re: Why Forums? What about the List?

Post by Buttercup » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:06 am

Lynn wrote:So what about the lists? They are being more strictly evaluated based on the three concerns above. Very long term lists tend to acquire cultures of their own and a different kind of persistence that can be detrimental to both the company sponsoring it and also impede new users wanting to learn more.
Wow. That sounds ominous.

So, the company feels that a community of users with its own culture is detrimental?

Brrr... it's hard to make me feel chilly in Sunny San Diego...

:(

Judy

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Re: Why Forums? What about the List?

Post by Buttercup » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:08 am

Lynn wrote: a different kind of persistence that can be detrimental to both the company sponsoring it and also impede new users wanting to learn more.
Do I understand correctly that persistence is detrimental?

From whence came this product if not from persistence?

Diving under down comforters...

Judy

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Re: Why Forums? What about the List?

Post by marielle » Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:13 am

Buttercup wrote:
Lynn wrote: a different kind of persistence that can be detrimental to both the company sponsoring it and also impede new users wanting to learn more.
Do I understand correctly that persistence is detrimental?
As the context was
Lynn wrote: impede new users wanting to learn more.
it is possible that Lynn was refering to the fact that a list more than a forum encourage members to develop rich and intricate relationships. Which helps form a stronger and more supportive community (which is obviously something we don't want to loose) but which can also discourage newcommers to chime in as they perceive the list as a family they are not part of.

For me, it was rather the transient nature of the mailing list I found annoying. I really enjoy the fact that I don't need to spend 10-20 min. just to trace the different replies that have already been made, overnight, to a post. As a non-native speaker of English, I also enjoy the opportunity to be able to re-edit my post and correct my failing English :oops:. Because I know I can do that, I tend to spend less time proof-reading and proof-reading again before pressing that stressing "send" button.

Buttercup
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Re: Why Forums? What about the List?

Post by Buttercup » Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:35 pm

marielle wrote:[it is possible that Lynn was refering to the fact that a list more than a forum encourage members to develop rich and intricate relationships. Which helps form a stronger and more supportive community (which is obviously something we don't want to loose) but which can also discourage newcommers to chime in as they perceive the list as a family they are not part of.
As English is my main language, I'll argue that it's difficult to see this as the primary meaning based upon the definition of detrimental, which is a rather strong word (stronger than say, impediment, which is an obstacle around which ways can be found; detrimental is, well, detrimental, i.e., negative, bad, etc.).

You and others may well like fora. That's great. But the message is on the wall that they are clearly intended to *replace* the list:

lists = community = detrimental
fora = user-supported help desks = good thing.

The community is to be marginalized if not eliminated altogether. Without community, will the userbase to staff the help desks be as rich or as committed?

Just how many "regulars" or "cousins" do you see here helping out now?

Judy

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Re: Why Forums? What about the List?

Post by marielle » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:58 pm

On persistent -> detrimental, consider this situation. Sometimes, you really get fed up about something. You express it, it gets fixed a week later. On a mailing list, no way to delete the initial post, no guarantee that the post that mentions that the problem has been fixed would be read too. On a forum, the post can be deleted. :arrow: less detrimental for the company

Giving way to censorship? The risk is low. They are many alternative communication channels. If runrev censors anybody on light motives, the information will travel anyway and this will be even more detrimental to their company than to leave the post on the forum with a well written answer. Rather facilitating self-censorship! Honestly, there have been circumstances where I have expressed something after loosing my cool ... that I regreted later on :oops: . On a list, the information would be persistent (and my shame permanent). With a forum, I can erase or rewrite the message and I have less chance to be reminded of my shame. :arrow: less detrimental for the users.

Anyway, they may come to suppress the list because it is too confusing for users to keep both the list and fora. But this doesn't mean they have any mean to forbid "cousins" to meet in less formal environments. It's quite easy to set up a rev-familymeetings mailing list elsewhere.

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Post by Garrett » Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:05 pm

Let's just simplify this and call it what it is. Mailing list tend to create
what's called the "Good Ol' Boy" club where certain users feel they have
the right to say and do as they wish on the mailing list.

The club develops into an almost religious cult, and if anyone disagrees
with them, they are crusified with a vengence.

New users join the list and see these things going on and become afraid
to post for fear that they will get beaten up by a member of the club, or
that they will be completely ignored since they are not a member of the
club.

New users can easily be mislead into thinking that this is the overall
atmosphere of the related product to the list. So yes, it can be more than
detrimental.

And let's face it, the RevList suffers from this problem.

-Garrett

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Post by FourthWorld » Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:39 pm

Garrett wrote:Let's just simplify this and call it what it is. Mailing list tend to create
what's called the "Good Ol' Boy" club where certain users feel they have
the right to say and do as they wish on the mailing list.

The club develops into an almost religious cult, and if anyone disagrees
with them, they are crusified with a vengence.
If a new user shows up and declares that RunRev has somehow sold their collective soul to Satan because they ship before fixing every known issue, that user will receive an introduction to software development processes, regardless of venue.

Many new users for many years have raved about the list as a helpful resource.

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