LiveCode

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drbob001
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Re: LiveCode

Post by drbob001 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:00 pm

Actually, I'm trying to determine what, exactly, the cost of "upgrade" will be. I'm an enterprise user, as well as a founder of OnRev - however, the site isn't very cooperative with my login and fails to recognize my past purchases...

Also, what will the long-term costs be(come) - will there be a cost per upgrade? Cost per year? How does it compare to the prior plan?

As for OnRev, what's going on there? Founders were assured that they would be well cared for -- and we paid a hefty price for that assurance. Will the founders be grandfathered for the development platform?

To be frank, after reading the documentation I've been able to find, I see that (essentially) my yearly maintenance costs appear to be going UP. I'm in my mid-year of my existing license, and it appears that I will need to pay more to maintain my current standing. It feels like I bought a car and a year into the contract the bank says, "Hey! We decided to change the way we do things - so you're going to be paying more for your loan..."

Not a real happy camper, at this point...

ReindlWolfgang
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Re: LiveCode

Post by ReindlWolfgang » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:29 pm

kevinmiller wrote: Or a $99 license for the new LiveCode which can deploy to a platform of your choice (e.g. both Mac and Windows). Or you can deploy to iOS for just $99, a substantial drop in price compared to the high end pricing for revMobile.
The store (http://www.runrev.com/store/?currency=dollar) tells me "-2-9-7-$-" replaced by "275$" ... for the "personal" edition (I suppose that's replacing revMedia)
As far as I understand the new licence, one is not allowed to sell standalones made with "Private", so you need "Commercial" with 500$ to do so.

I'm not really interested in writing for winDOS, it's just a "why not" if it's included. I'm slightly less uninterested in writing for penguins and iToys, and if I've to pay extra for that I won't do.

And if I read the comments in this thread correctly it's necessary to renew the licence regularily.
Yes, I do appreciate programmers and I'm willing to pay for software. BUT as soon as I've payed a licence I want to use that software forever (at least until next MAYOR update) and not pay for it every year.

Wolfgang

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Re: LiveCode

Post by Janschenkel » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:43 pm

Hi Wolfgang,

They're not taking away your current version, and you can keep using that until the end of time (or until you no longer have a computer that will run it)
Moreover, if you're only looking to deploy to your own Windows, MacOSX or Linux computer, you can get the personal edition for just $99.
It's easy: just use the store wizard to pick your custom license combination. If you also need iOS, it's another $99. Or if you need to deploy to the web browser plugin, it's also just $99 extra.
If you're building commercial software, then the starting point for Windows+MacOSX is just $299 - and you can pick the other deployments that you need, when you need them.
Forget the old model, and you'll appreciate how you get a lot of functionality for just the target platforms you need.

Jan Schenkel.
Quartam Reports & PDF Library for LiveCode
www.quartam.com

drbob001
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Re: LiveCode

Post by drbob001 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:36 am

Janschenkel wrote:Forget the old model, and you'll appreciate how you get a lot of functionality for just the target platforms you need.
While 'forgetting' might work for Wolfgang, it doesn't work across the board. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you've invested in Enterprise -- and paid for all those updates over the period of ownership. Not exactly inexpensive in itself. Now, we're going to move to an entirely new model with a new pricing structure that's actually pretty high - for me to get the same outcome as my Enterprise license, what will that run? Compare that to upgrading my yearly license, then ask me if forgetting will work for me...

I guess the big problems for me are: A. Some significant percentage of the 'upgrade' costs are also bug-fix costs. If one buys today, you still need the updates to resolve bugs. I assign a higher value to the bug squashing than the new goodies - but I'm stuck paying for both; B. I don't want to develop commercially, but DO like the ability to write for all three platforms - thus, I forked over significantly for Enterprise. Under the new model, I'm penalized for wanting to 'play' in all three arenas.

As for web development, I'm at a loss right now - As a founder of On-Rev, it was my understanding that the development tools were part of the package -- and that Enterprise picked up the rest of any development tools that might be lacking. With the shift we're seeing, it appears that I will also have to pay again to stay alive with On-Rev. The message I received back from the company today left me scratching my head worse than where I started two days ago... Soooo... Am I correct in my understanding that if I stay with my current version of Revolution I have reached the end of my ability to develop plug-in code for my On-Rev site? Or will the On-Rev site continue to support my < 4.5 Enterprise developments in the future?

So, I guess a reasonable person would suggest that I can stay right where I am -- and I'd be good with that, if there's some level of bug-fixing to my existing subscription. Note the choice of word: subscription. I paid for the 'right' to receive my upgrades for the year - without additional penalty. That's NOT what it appears that I'm receiving.

As for changing the name, that's a decision best left to the owners of the company - they have to decide in the best interest of their company. As a business owner for 37 years, changing business names isn't something done on a whim. Especially if you've invested as much time, energy and money as RunRev has to date. Not sure how you'd justify the change, but it still remains their decision.

For those comparing the company to Apple, MS, etc., those are unfortunate comparisons. Each company has its own structure and method of arriving at their goal(s). Revolution/RunRev is not Apple and they have no obligation to produce free software for the world -- although a sudden change mid-stream is AGAIN annoying and counter productive, IMHO. $100 for new entrants is a great price -- as I recall, that was the same price as retail HyperCard, prior to its demise.

I'll have to look to see if Revolution is publicly traded -- always nice to have a financial interest in a company, and the ability to suggest your own ideas as an investor...

drbob001
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Limited Liability Partnerships and the EULA

Post by drbob001 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:56 am

It appears that Runtime Revolution is not publicly owned. Sad. However, I was piqued by this section of the current EULA, posted on the website:

"The Licensed Editions have built in limits that restrict the use of certain features ("Limits"). Such Limits are published on our web site from time to time and may be varied at any time without notice. In particular Limits are published with respect to the use of the deployment types under each license type."

So, if I license the Mac/Windows version today, Runtime Revolution reserves the "right" to later rescind one (or both, for that matter) options at a later date, without prior notice? Items like this cause me concern.

InfoCentral
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Re: LiveCode

Post by InfoCentral » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:11 am

drbob001 wrote:While 'forgetting' might work for Wolfgang, it doesn't work across the board.
As a wise person once said, "remember the source." This is coming from a third party plug-in developer who's income is directly related to the continued user base. If this product declines so does the number of sales in the third party developer market. Not exactly an unbiased view.
"I am an Apple user and whatever they tell me I know it is for my own good and for the good of the collective..."

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Re: Limited Liability Partnerships and the EULA

Post by InfoCentral » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:35 am

drbob001 wrote:It appears that Runtime Revolution is not publicly owned.
Perhaps this might shed some light it:

Mirye Software Publishing is a leading developer and title publisher of cross-platform titles for Mac OS X, Windows and Linux. Mirye specializes in cross-platform digital creation and development tools and professional content. These include best-of-class authoring and development tools that enable digital creators and developers to plan, build, enrich and ship solutions through every venue.
Why Mirye

Mirye Software Publishing is a property of Proactive International, LLC, the international channel development agency. Founded in 1997, Proactive International creates and expands product distribution and sales into international markets. Mirye Software Publishing was launched in 2007 in order to provide a direct venue to end user customers for specialized products.

I'm not sure what the relationship is between RunRev and Mirye but I was under the impression Mirye was the parent company of RunRev. This is where I got introduced to Rev was by Mirye and Shade 3D. They ran a few specials where if you upgraded Shade they threw in RevMedia for FREE. RevMedia soon became a FREE product. I think it was $99 at the time. So now their back to the $99 but this time no commercial deployment.
"I am an Apple user and whatever they tell me I know it is for my own good and for the good of the collective..."

drbob001
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Re: LiveCode

Post by drbob001 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:21 am

Excellent follow-up items, and I recognized the third-party developer relationship, just decided not to address it at this juncture...

I'm curious if there are other people who find themselves in my situation - being a purchaser in mid-contract for pre 4.5, entitled to upgrades at no cost during the term of the agreement, now dealing with 4.5.

Note to Runtime Revolution, et al - On more than one occasion I've dug deep into my pockets to support your development efforts, because I believed in the concept you put forth -- a HyperCard replacement at a reasonable price, etc. Although I'm an ISP, I put up money to be a founder for OnRev, because I believed in what RR was promoting in that arena - the ability to run 'stacks' via the web.

I'm not particularly happy with how I, or the class of people similar to myself, are being treated in this 4.5 upgrade based on what I've learned so far. I encourage you to stand tall and do the right thing.

InfoCentral -

Love your signature!

Signed, a fellow member of the collective...

Mark
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Re: LiveCode

Post by Mark » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:38 am

InfoCentral,

Mirye and RunRev are two independent companies. The owner of Mirye might have invested a little bit of money in RunRev, but if he did, he is certainly not 'the' owner of RunRev. There are several investors but the owner(s) is/are Kevin c.s. Mirye has been allowed to re-sell Revolution in the US and maybe also in Japan. All this isn't very clear to me.

Personally, whenever I buy something, I use direct sales channels if possible. I buy my hardware directly from Apple Netherlands and bought Revolution directly from RunRev.

Best regards,

Mark
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Re: LiveCode

Post by Janschenkel » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:05 am

Actually, my living is not based on Rev/LiveCode sales. I have a day-job as a software engineer, and Quartam Software is what I do in the evenings. It's probably never going to make me rich but I find it fun and engaging to build libraries that other developers can use to more quickly put together their LiveCode-based applications. My opinions most certainly do not always conicide with the RunRev company position.
Mirye does not own the company RunRev or the product LiveCode - it is merely the official reseller for North-America and Japan. Mirye or its parent company may have shares in RunRev, but it would not be a majority share.
And you might as well discard Mark Schonewille's advice because he offers consultancy services for the LiveCode platform and thus can't possibly give you an unbiased opinion ;-)

Back to the topic...

Regarding On-Rev: this is completely separate from the LiveCode product line. It is a hosting service running a version of LiveCode Server, where you can create online web pages and services in a similar way to PHP. In addition, it has a special developmpent tool for remote debugging of said pages and services.
Whether you joined On-Rev as a Founder or afterwards, nothing changes: you are not charged extra and you can enjoy the LiveCode Server updates as they become available during your subscription lifetime.

The Web deployment option concerns the ability to create applets that you can put in a web page, similar to Flash, Silverlight and JavaFX applets. This has nothing to do with On-Rev or LiveCode Server, as you can put these applets onto any web server - the end-user has to install the free LiveCode Web browser plug-in, just like they have to install Flashand other plug-ins to run them inside the web browser on their computer. If you're not interested, you don't have to buy this deployment option.

As for existing customers: RunRev is converting your revEnterprise subscription to the equivalent LiveCode plan - if your revEnterprise license is valid today, you automatically get LiveCode 4.5 with all desktop deployment packs (Windows, MacOSX and Linux) as well as the web deployment option. So you don't lose anything, and you get all updates until your current pre-paid assurance pack has ended. After that, you will have to pay for upgrades, but your existing Rev/LiveCode copies won't suddenly stop working.

And when it comes to the EULA, you'll actually find that sort of terms all over the place. The main concern for RunRev is that you (a) don't use LiveCode to make a competing product, and (b) only use the deployment types that you've paid for. Personally, I don't appreciate the sentence "Such Limits are published on our web site from time to time and may be varied at any time without notice" either, but it's standard practice in EULA's these days.
Remember, an EULA is just a contract, and if you somehow do end up in legal proceedings, the judge may throw out certain clauses of the contract if deemed unlawful or unfair. These things are written up by lawyers but the fact that a clause is in a contract, does not mean it will be upheld in court...

Jan Schenkel.
Quartam Reports & PDF Library for LiveCode
www.quartam.com

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Re: Limited Liability Partnerships and the EULA

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:47 pm

drbob001 wrote:It appears that Runtime Revolution is not publicly owned. Sad. However, I was piqued by this section of the current EULA, posted on the website:

"The Licensed Editions have built in limits that restrict the use of certain features ("Limits"). Such Limits are published on our web site from time to time and may be varied at any time without notice. In particular Limits are published with respect to the use of the deployment types under each license type."

So, if I license the Mac/Windows version today, Runtime Revolution reserves the "right" to later rescind one (or both, for that matter) options at a later date, without prior notice? Items like this cause me concern.
I wouldn't lose sleep over it. The limits in place now have been in the product since it was born under the name "MetaCard" in 1992, and have been unchanged ever since: within a standalone you can't modify scripts with more than 10 executable lines of code, nor employ more than 10 frontScripts, 10 backScripts, and 50 library stacks. The license also explicitly makes clear that these limits don't apply in the IDE, and anyone is welcome to make any and all manner of IDE tools they like so long as such tools require a licensed version of Rev to run.

I've shipped a lot of products made with Rev since I first started using this engine in 1997, and I've never come close to hitting those limits. If you have a need for a standalone to employ self-modifying code on a scope larger than the default configuration allows, Kevin has noted that he's quite willing to work with developers on a case-by-case basis to accommodate that.

The purpose of that caveat is simply to avoid what's become known in xTalk circles as The Digital Chisel Problem: way back in the mid-90s a company took the SuperCard engine, scripted a set of stacks to provide their own IDE for it, and marketed it in direct competition to SuperCard. Since the owners of SuperCard had no such caveat in their license at the time, that one of their own customers was cannibalizing a significant portion of SuperCard sales using the SuperCard engine was perfectly legal.

In that particular case, ultimately both parties reached an agreement, possibly involving revenue sharing in the form of royalties, in order to allow both products to continue profitably (though sadly both encountered major problems attempting to port to Windows, but that's another story).

To avoid such complication for themselves, RunRev Ltd. learned the lesson from that episode and has included the caveat you cited. Since the dev tools business is a narrow niche anyway, this hasn't come into play often in the many years the Rev engine has been so widely used by so many. In fact, in the only case I can think of which violated Section 4L of the license agreement Kevin was quite generous in allowing it to proceed without royalties or any other consideration AFAIK.

So in practical terms, unless your objective is to compete with RunRev using their own engine, you'll likely never be affected by that clause in any way.
Richard Gaskin
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LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
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ReindlWolfgang
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Re: LiveCode

Post by ReindlWolfgang » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:09 pm

Janschenkel wrote: They're not taking away your current version, and you can keep using that until the end of time (or until you no longer have a computer that will run it)
OK, as long as I stick to my old Hypercard-Project the free revMedia will do "forever" (meaning until His Seveness makes his next abrupt change).
I can learn about revTalk/LiveCode and can do new things for myself.

Janschenkel wrote: Moreover, if you're only looking to deploy to your own Windows, MacOSX or Linux computer, you can get the personal edition for just $99.
I'm NOT interested in working on a windos or linux computer as long as there is a MacOS (YMMV)
But - If I decide to publish some of those things I did - I might cover people using penguin, iToys or windos as well. With the new licence the price is increasing rapidly:
Janschenkel wrote: It's easy: just use the store wizard to pick your custom license combination. If you also need iOS, it's another $99. Or if you need to deploy to the web browser plugin, it's also just $99 extra.
If you're building commercial software, then the starting point for Windows+MacOSX is just $299 - and you can pick the other deployments that you need, when you need them.
Forget the old model, and you'll appreciate how you get a lot of functionality for just the target platforms you need.
OK, what will it cost if I want to create standalones on a Mac and want to publish them for
1) Mac only (300$ = 300$)
2) Mac + Penguin (less unimportant) (300+200$ = 500$)
3) Mac + Penguin + iToys (second less unimportant) (300+200+200$ = 700$)
4) Mac + Penguin + iToys + windos (most unimportant) (300+200+200$ = 700$)

With the old revStudio it was possible to publish for
1) Mac + Penguin + windos (300$ =300$)
2) Mac + Penguin + windos + iToys (300+200$ =500$)

Tell me if I calculated wrong

Wolfgang
As there are more important things to do the next couple of days for me as reanimating some old hobby, I'll be ofline until next week.

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Re: LiveCode

Post by bn » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:37 pm

Wolfgang,
If I decide to publish some of those things I did - I might cover people using penguin, iToys or windos as well
That depends, if you give that away for free then it would be:
http://www.runrev.com/store/product/liv ... al-macwin/
Mac & Windows = 99$, 79 Euros (taxes not included, I guess)
If you want to add Linux it is another 79 Euros.
That lets you build Standalones for those operating systems for not-for-profit software.
The prices you quoted were for for-profit-software, i.e. if you want to sell the software.
That does not sound unreasonable to me.

regards
Bernd

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Re: LiveCode

Post by Janschenkel » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:25 pm

ReindlWolfgang wrote:With the old revStudio it was possible to publish for
1) Mac + Penguin + windos (300$ =300$)
2) Mac + Penguin + windos + iToys (300+200$ =500$)
revMobile was $999 and if it had gone forward as planned, would have included iPhone/iPad, Windows Mobile and Meego (later changed to rising star Android). Hard to compare with the current 'mobile' deployment packs. Steve Jobs' now-revoked ban on non-native languages in iOS caused a serious shake-up at RunRev HQ, and they took the time to re-evaluate their product line and strategy.

Under the new approach you pay for how you deploy, rather than what features you got (revStudio didn't have Oracle or SSL, and revMedia had no datagrid nor could it build standalones) - so in a lot of cases, you can now get a cheaper combination than before. In other cases, you will pay more under the new structure; but you can budget for it as you assess potential new markets and specifically develop for them.

At the end of the day, we all need to make a living. You, me, and our suppliers as well.

Jan Schenkel.
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Re: LiveCode

Post by hliljegren » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:57 pm

Ok, I was a bit confused before but now I'm really confused. I got an email telling me that I can upgrade my current Studio License to the new LiveCode. OK so lets assume I want the to deploy to Mac and iOS platforms. I select the "Desktop Deployment : Mac + Windows // $99" and then the "Mobile Deployment : iOS (Pre-Release) // $299" and the sum is calculated to $547. If I don't upgrade at all but go to the store for new licenses I can buy the iOS deployment for $499 and according to web page "This package includes LiveCode development tools plus deployment to Mac, Windows and iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch" So my penalty for being a previous customer who wants to upgrade is around $50! Can someone explain please!
___________________________________
MacBook Pro, 15" 2.6GHz i7 Mac OS X 10.10.4
iMac 27", 3.2 GHz Quad i7, Mac OS 10.10.4
LiveCode 7.0.6 or 8.0dp4

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