LiveCode

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tetsuo29
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LiveCode

Post by tetsuo29 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:27 pm

I'm a bit surprised that there isn't a discussion regarding the change from Revolution to LiveCode. I myself am still trying to get my head around the changes and what it means to me. It seems that one of the immediate changes is that a $299 license like I currently have will be more limited than it was previously. It sounds as though my current deployment options: Mac, Win, Linux, Solaris, Web would be cut down to: Mac or Windows, and to add Linux/Solaris, or web would cost $199 each. In other words, it looks like the new pricing structure would cost me $299 + $199 + $199, or $697. That seems like quite the price hike. Admittedly, I mostly deploy to Mac & Win, but paying $700 to get all of the same deployment options that $300 currently buys seems like a hefty and unfriendly price increase. What are your thoughts?

gayasoft
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Re: LiveCode

Post by gayasoft » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:36 am

I agree

Thats the first time that I saw a technology that likely doesn't have a too large followership yet going through 2 name changes in less than 12 months, a light licensing changing to be then followed by a total overhaul to the worse ...

As I see it now, we don't pay yearly fees anymore. instead the license cost per upgrade even to joke intermediates like 4.5 (great idea, lets make a programming language that advertises easy usage and sells basic table gadget features through 3rd party as $100 addon, come up with sub majors that you sell yet add about nothing to most. and no, I'm not accepting "bugfixes" as something sold, bugfix releases are free with any other technology, at least all who don't want to refund for advertising stuff thats broken) ...

I would have considered such a model to make sense but only if the price is reasonable, not if it spikes to even more overpriced than the old model was in the light of the slow development pace and the low amount of new usefull stuff that 4.x brought in general.

I guess the only ones happy about this change are those who did windows + osx deploy and had / require business cause thats the license that got cheaper I think, cause its less than business and you only lose the cweb plugin support

I'm not all that happy at all and definitely won't get 4.5 (till 4.0 my update contract covered for my studio license).
Will check out 5.0 when its out if runrev finally understood that it is not acceptable to offer a "3rd party selling capability" for basic interface things like working tableviews and other fundamental stuff especially if you just don't add them to the language to not "cut 3rd party income" or whatever the reason is that they ignore those features.


But even the checkback on 5.0 will only happen if they by then started supporting on-rev again too.
I'm one of the founders yet since the launch of the service last year there was basically no support at all for the platform, editor not updated, has no docs, is still the same alpha as a few weeks after the initial start in 09, is missing masses of advertised to come features (which gets worse due to the fact that I think that the standalone server license got some of that stuff) and although we were sold php + asp.net, after a few month my environment just moved to a linux platform and I lost asp.net again without any notice at all (found it out the hard way when I tried to push in a dotnet cms again)
The support team itself if you have a problem is great and fast.
But unhappily a support team on its own doesn't cut it if you payed hundreds of bucks for a programming language to create UI driven software in a more productive way than through java or C# (which are my main languages) and if you wanted to use runrev on the server and are left in the rain with an alpha version and didn't get an update for a year and then get face punched by them selling the rev server addon while you still didn't get anything on the on-rev platform.

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Re: LiveCode

Post by InfoCentral » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:20 am

Yep, too expensive for my tastes. I thought what they really needed to do was concentrate on getting users up and running in their program through producing tutorials and training. In this economic decline hard decisions need to be made and while I am new to RunRev I still have found no decent training for this product to use it yet. So for me to pay the high price for an upgrade is ridiculous. This is my first version, 4.0, and it seriously looks like my last too. I guess if your a full time programmer then you can pick up just about language and find your way around. I am not, so I will be economizing and keep Real Studio and MS Visual Studio 2010.
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drbob001
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Re: LiveCode

Post by drbob001 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:29 am

I'm not a happy camper, either. Upgraded to Enterprise, AND a founding member of their online services. I'm now concerned about their viability as a company and what my best response to this (significant) change should be.

I'd be curious to hear from others who feel they have been treated like unwanted step children over the on-Rev situation - maybe we have a legitimate leg to stand on with respect to on-Rev and this upgrade, forcing us to spend more money in the hopes that we'll be able to develop to the webserver... Thoughts?

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Re: LiveCode

Post by pfa » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:00 am

I too am a very unhappy customer, concerning this last move from runrev. I find it a much more confusing product line. Only in some manager head can a single name that means whatever dozens of different things and prices can be 'simpler' than a clear family of products with increasing set of features. I thought runrev had finally matured, focusing on delivering stable, bug-free code, but now I see it is still under the syndrome of an eternal beta. From target to target, from marketing packaging to another.

I think it is too expensive hike. But more important is that this may be the end of any chance to create a real large user base, by killing the introductory free revMedia option.

I understand a business needs to profit. But it is a huge mistake to not offer an easy entry to the platform for mass users - such as students and 'hypercard-supercard-type' of self-made scripters. revMedia was a clever way to entice a user base. Even if runrev wanted to start making money from basic level product, it should offer something near the 10-20 dollar range.

I had already convinced the my University to install revMedia in all computers. This is a huge commitment, because of resources invested in deploying and supporting, even if it is a free software - whatever is installed is a very selective set. This meant I could now create a huge base of users, put runrev on the map for generations of thousand of users, and slowly move to deploy studio and enterprise licences for more and more labs. Now, there is no way I am going to convince my University to adopt runrev with this price model; 30 day test is irrelevant for proof of concept for administration of a place with thousands of students. This requires one or two years of testing and seeing results that justify a mass PAID deployment - not going to happen to what is a pretty obscure platform, in the eyes of mainstream administration.

I also believe it is a wrong strategy to focus on web plugins and revlets etc. The future of the web lies , as always, in open standards, not flash-like solutions. But as long as there is a good effort to keep desktop-oriented platform option, it really doesn't affect us - it may, however, put runrev in a non-viable path.

I hope runrev realizes it is a bad move. We need something like Revolution to grow strong. It is wonderful that someone like runrev team gave us back an empowerment tool hypercard-like, ever since Steve Jobs transformed Apple into a gadget company and embarked into the client-lock closed-platform paradigm. If runrev becomes limited to a small niche of developers, I for one will lose total interest.

And for now I will hold to my revStudio license. No way I will downgrade it to this LiveCode mess.
Last edited by pfa on Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ooper
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Re: LiveCode

Post by ooper » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:42 am

I am happy with the name change. I think LiveCode is catchy and could break the ice in the marketplace. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt it will at the new price :(

And what the heck is happening to free revMedia? It was a a very good strategy.
Last edited by ooper on Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

bangkok
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Re: LiveCode

Post by bangkok » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:44 am

I would like to add a different tune to this thread.

I'm a happy customer.

We have to remember one thing : 2010 was like a annus horribilis for RunRev with the mobile fiasco (eventhough since 2 weeks, Apple has changed its policy so RunRev Mobile could continue). It was a serious blow to the company.

So I see LiveCode as a kind of reborn.

-yes on rev is still alpha (like RunRev Server, sorry LiveCode Server)
-yes 4.5 lacks some features (I'm waiting for the revamp of text fields.... in version 5)

In any case : I'm willing to pay, to support this company.

RR is not Microsoft, nor Apple. But eventually they make some very useful tools, that make my day, eventhough we would always like more, faster, better, higher, cheaper etc.

Again, I'm not a groupie for the sake of it : I'm a fan because RunRev helps me doing stuff. Might sound short, but for me that's the point of software tools.

And last point : it was more than necessary to change the name... RunRev, Revolution, Transcript.... it was a total mess as far as "google" and Internet footprint are concerned.

MikeinHawaii
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Re: LiveCode

Post by MikeinHawaii » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:23 am

The irony is that I had prefixed all my stacks that I ever made like this- LiveCodeDatagridfoulup.rev stack, and LiveCodesimplebuttontoreturntoyesterday.rev stack. And I suppose I'll have to forget all the things I learned in the last 9 months so I can rescript properly- LiveCodeDataFromQuerry command, and LiveCodeConnectToDatabase.... :P

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Re: LiveCode

Post by hliljegren » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:58 pm

Does anyone know if there will be an upgrade possible for existing 4.0 customers? Or is this a "new product" and therefore you need to buy a new license? Or does RunRev not practice upgrade policies?

Now my $.02
I must agree with most of you that the new product line is confusing and the reason to drop the free RevMedia is not good in my opinion. Last year I started using RevMedia in my multimedia classes. There were two reasons for that:

1. My students could download the free RevMedia to their home computers and use a proper (not pirated) copy for development at home.
2. The learning curve for Flash and ActionScript was to steep.

Now I really have to consider going back as we already have CS licenses (as we use the other CS apps). Flash Catalyst has also lowered the bar. So two strong advantages has been reduced to a half.

For CS5 we payed ~$40/seat so I do think that $500 or $1000 for a 20-seat license for educational use is a somewhat fair price, but to be frank the CS5 package includes "a bit" ;) more than LiveCode. But for larger institutions I guess it will be a real stepping stone. My suggestion is to actually add a free version with no deployment at all. I.e. you can only run your stacks within the LiveCode environment. HyperCard had that! That should be enough for students and educators to test-run the app before buying a 20-seat license. A 30-day trial almost never work in institutions as you usually have one person installing (who of course test that the app starts) and another who wants to test it. And living in the education world you start one day to find that you really need to take care of something else and then when you do have time again your trial has expired. I thought that the free version was a genius move to increase the user base (especially students), but now the genius has gone. Another solution would be to let the students piggyback on the institution license. Let's say we have an institutional license and then our students could download a personal license for free or for a small "administrative fee". For students I think you should not charge more than $5-$10.

I must also agree with pfa about the future for web deployment If LiveCode could deploy to web using standards (as one of the competitor REALSoftware does) instead of a plugin there would be a much more interesting product. I know there is a LiveCode server but that only simplifies the server part and not the client part. And using a browser plugin for that feels kind of backward. For this I think Runrev should join forces with Rodeo or TileStack.
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Re: LiveCode

Post by heatherlaine » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:12 pm

Yes, we are offering upgrades to existing customers. If you have had any kind of Rev license in the past you should have received a new account email, and an email explaining what this change means for you. You can log in to your account and see what your upgrade options are. We have tried to be quite generous in terms of migrating people.

Glad to hear people like the name - it does seem to have gone down well overall. Unfortunately while we understand the disappointment of revMedia users, it is not economically viable for us at the moment to continue offering a completely free product. On the plus side, we have introduced an entry level price point of only $99, and you can even program for a mobile platform at this price if you wish to. Per seat, K12 now costs $25- not a huge amount. However, if your school or educational establishment was using revMedia, and you'd like to talk to us about what options might be available to you now, please do contact support@runrev.com - we are looking at introducing a scholarship scheme for education.

Regards

Heather
Customer Services Manager
http://www.runrev.com/
LiveCode – Realize fast, compile-free coding

ReindlWolfgang
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Re: LiveCode

Post by ReindlWolfgang » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:24 pm

Good Bye runrev/LiveCode! :(

My reason for using runrev was to reanimate an old HyperCard project to Mac OS X. A 30 days licence of revStudio was too short, but that free revMedia could have done it's job.
And if I'd be successful in learning TransSript there would have been some project in the back of my mind I'd liked to publish to enjoy Mac-users; penguins and win-lusers looked upon as a side-effect. That project would have needed a full licence of Studio to do. Costs for Studio for that second idea would have been resonable.

Translating of my old HC-project to rev is still unfinished.

There's a 130$ licence of SuperCard for old HyperCard users; I think, I'll switch to SuperCard for my old HC-stacks AND if I'll ever do my idea I'll drop those win-lusers and penguins.

rev, with your new licence-model you shot your own knee.

Wolfgang

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Re: LiveCode

Post by kevinmiller » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:24 pm

There's a 130$ licence of SuperCard for old HyperCard users; I think, I'll switch to SuperCard for my old HC-stacks AND if I'll ever do my idea I'll drop those win-lusers and penguins.
Or a $99 license for the new LiveCode which can deploy to a platform of your choice (e.g. both Mac and Windows). Or you can deploy to iOS for just $99, a substantial drop in price compared to the high end pricing for revMobile.
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Re: LiveCode

Post by kevinmiller » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:25 pm

tetsuo29 wrote:I'm a bit surprised that there isn't a discussion regarding the change from Revolution to LiveCode.
Just to weight in on the name change itself:

From the FAQ:

The new name more accurately conveys the benefits that are at the core of the LiveCode platform: a fast, compile-free workflow. This core message is more tightly associated with the unique selling points that are so important to our customer base, including enabling a highly productive workflow, outstanding ease-of-use, very-high-level English-like language and flexible delivery to multiple platforms and devices from a single code base.

We found that since introducing the “Rev” prefix we have introduced many new products and services, notably including revMobile and revServer. The product lineup was rapidly becoming complex and difficult to explain. These products are now simply deployment packs for LiveCode. This new lineup is much easier for both existing and new customers to understand. LiveCode better conveys our mission, focus and technology. The LiveCode name will be easier to locate in Internet searches. Rather than searching for “Rev” or “Revolution” which are buried with other unrelated items, or searching individually for “revMedia”, “revStudio” or “revMobile”, you can now perform a single search for “LiveCode”.

Much of the brand recognition we have to date centers around the company name “RunRev”, which is not changing. We haven’t changed the product name in the decade since its introduction (we have introduced variants but they have always had “Rev” or “Revolution” in the name). We believe that by centering all focus on a single, searchable word, the new brand will quickly overtake the brand recognition previously associated with “Rev” or “Revolution” which was actually quite difficult to brand.

----

I'll elaborate on that FAQ with a specific example that might be helpful:

One of the biggest practical issues we were coming up against with the old name was it searchability. For example, we've had 5x the press coverage over the last year than we had in the previous year, as measured by articles and site traffic. And yet there is no one search term you can use to find it. We've had coverage for revMobile, coverage for revEnterprise and in spite of my spending an hour on the phone with a prominent journalist who wrote a great review, he called it the wrong name. RunRev is the most used term and press are using it to describe the product name because they want something unique, but even that use is inconsistent. Rev is smart and catchy but go and search for that in Google now and you'll see the problem. This whole situation is was just not workable going forward. LiveCode is a fanstastic, strong, clear new name that will quickly become highly searchable.
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Re: LiveCode

Post by kevinmiller » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:27 pm

hliljegren wrote: I must also agree with pfa about the future for web deployment If LiveCode could deploy to web using standards (as one of the competitor REALSoftware does) instead of a plugin there would be a much more interesting product. I know there is a LiveCode server but that only simplifies the server part and not the client part. And using a browser plugin for that feels kind of backward. For this I think Runrev should join forces with Rodeo or TileStack.
We're certainly looking at additional ways to deploy in the future. However right now the web plugin is great for vertical applications, e.g. anywhere a membership is required, or for corporate development. Its a different market and a smaller one, but its still very viable and useful for that.
Kevin Miller ~ kevin@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
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Re: LiveCode

Post by shadowslash » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:44 pm

kevinmiller wrote:Rev is smart and catchy but go and search for that in Google now and you'll see the problem.
I'd have to agree with that statement.

EDIT:
But then, there comes the question of why this was only thought of now and not in some earlier phase of the Rev evolution?
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