Is livecode dead?

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richmond62
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:18 pm

No, I don't think LiveCode is dead, but I do think their efforts at outreach, especially to the education sector, are feeble.

bogs
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by bogs » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:14 pm

FourthWorld wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:32 am
MaxV wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:09 am
Nowdays the general perception is livecode = vaporware
LiveCode exists. I'm using it right now.
. I don't think "vaporware" means what you think it means.
That would be a pretty broad statement Max, and incorrect assumption ("the general perception", after all, would require more than just an opinion). As Richard pointed out, vaporware would be the equivalent of what went on with Duke Nukem 3, a much hyped and greatly marketed bit of gaming software that never happened for a decade thereafter, where as Lc has more or less a direct route back to it's heritage in Mc in 2001. 16 years of a product being available and actively developed ≠ vaporware in any stretch of the imagination.
Newbie4 wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:47 am
You are missing his point.
I completely understand his point, but you don't help that point by making wildly inaccurate statements.

BTW, not to just reply to everyone else :wink:
MaxV wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:09 am
but when a new number goes out, no other old version should come out.
I don't think I'd agree with that statement at all, after all, there is not (or wasn't at the time of this statement) a stable 9.x version. Also, I think for a goodly number of reasons fixes should be backported as far as they will go (without causing new issues).

However, Max's statement about not having the download section so completely full is valid, and I remember saying that before. For someone just hitting the page, and going to the download section to download Lc (perhaps as a link from the [completely new to programming button], that person should be sent to a page that has maybe the last 2 stable versions, no Rc, Dp, or beta selections.

The full selection should still be available to download, but more like it is done else where, with a 'archive section' and a 'preview' section. This is easy to do, easy to maintain, and the actual downloads page doesn't have to even be changed to do it (although it certainly could be).

I'll get off the Image now :)
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shaosean
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by shaosean » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:30 pm

Duke Nukem 4 .. It did eventually get released though..

bogs
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by bogs » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:04 pm

shaosean wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:30 pm
Duke Nukem 4 .. It did eventually get released though..
Heh, after 4 years of waiting for it, all I could remember was the title, "Duke Nukem Forever", and the only reason I remembered that was because it seemed like that was how long it was going to take to ever see it come to fruition :P

Apparently some completely different company did eventually release it, 12 years later (not counting the probably 3 years it was initially being developed), but that title is still the definition of 'vaporware' in my book, and I guess in lots of other books -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nukem_Forever wrote:Duke Nukem Forever started development at 3D Realms and Triptych Games, and was finished by Gearbox Software and Piranha Games.
<sic>
Intended to be groundbreaking, Duke Nukem Forever became a notable example of vaporware due to its severely protracted development schedule; the game was released in 2011 after fifteen years of development.

Now, to apply this to this thread, If Lc stopped making any releases for, oh, 2 years, but made announcements for all of those years, THEN I would suspect it might be vaporware :mrgreen:
Last edited by bogs on Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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shaosean
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by shaosean » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:07 pm

To me vapourware is software announced but not released. Microsoft used to pull that tactic to kill off competition.

bogs
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by bogs » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:10 pm

Yes, exactly so. I guess the only question is, when do you consider it as not released?

Although, Lc would not fall into this category in any case.
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shaosean
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by shaosean » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:16 pm

If it's never released, after being announced, then it's vapourware. Once it's released, even 15 years later, it's no longer vapourware.

bogs
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by bogs » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:23 pm

Your standards are far more generous than mine then my friend :)
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shaosean
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by shaosean » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:35 pm

I like to think I'm generous.

richmond62
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:53 pm

All the stuff about Duke Nukem and vaporware seems a bit tangential.

I get a mailing from Supercard, Xojo (a.k.a Real BASIC) and so forth on almost a weekly basis: not "just" to
announce upgrades, but to PUSH ideas about things I could do with SuperCard, Xojo, Uncle Tom Cobbley and
all, far more better, easily, efficiently than if I rode into Widdecombe Fair on someone else's moke.

The e-mails are because I once paid a visit to SuperCard, Xojo and Uncle Tom's websites out of vague interest
and left my e-mail address there . . .

The LiveCode website, as has been pointed out already . . .

There are some people who are helping LiveCode dodge the bullets, but the bullets are still flying . . .

And English teachers, as well as lots of other people, are making rude, uninformed remarks about
LiveCode because LiveCode is NOT being SHOVED IN THEIR FACES in such a way that they can do
nothing whatsoever to dodge it.

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:05 pm

bogs wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:14 pm
MaxV wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:09 am
but when a new number goes out, no other old version should come out.
I don't think I'd agree with that statement at all, after all, there is not (or wasn't at the time of this statement) a stable 9.x version. Also, I think for a goodly number of reasons fixes should be backported as far as they will go (without causing new issues).
What Max described is actually the work plan. But if you manage projects of this complexity you'll appreciate the deviations that sometimes occur with any plan.

As planned, there would only be two versions being worked on at any given time: bug fixes added to the most recent Stable release, and those bug fixes merged with features in the latest Developer Preview release.

But once in a while there's a need to introduce a new feature sooner than waiting for the rest of a DP scope to be completed. Moments like that are what gave us the current 8.x sub-branches. The v9 DP branch is pretty awesome with new features, but that scope means it will be a while yet before it's Stable.

So if the company or a key partner or a significant portion of the community needs a particular feature ASAP, we see another version in between the last major (left side of the version's decimal) Stable and the next major release. This allows Stable to remain stable, keeps large-scope work moving forward, while allowing an occasional new feature to land in something in between for those who need it.

It's not ideal. But with any complex project in any industry, little is.
However, Max's statement about not having the download section so completely full is valid, and I remember saying that before.
Oh yes, definitely. But a poor UX is not "vaporware", nor does it mean LiveCode is "dead". By that definition LinkedIn would be "dead" (OMG worst UX I've seen from a company their size, but that's another story).

Identifying issues with the user experience is productive.
Communicating those with anyone other than those who can act on the observations is less productive.
Muddying the conversation by introducing irrelevant alarmist language is counter-productive.

Max frequently has a lot of great ideas. I would encourage him to have confidence in those ideas - they're often quite good on their own, and don't need the excitement of provocative language to drive their point home.

His observation on the Downloads page is, IMO, spot-on.

In fact, I felt so strongly about it I did the thing that seems oddly uncommon here: when I had an observation I wanted to share with them, I shared it with them. I didn't write you, or my wife, or anyone else not in a position to act on it. And it turns out that by writing to them, it became possible for them to write back. :)

By writing to them I've learned they're fully aware that the current "Wall of a Thousand Links" (a pet term I've come to use for the Downloads page) is not a universal solution.

It's great for experienced devs who may need access to any version made in the last decade.

But of course it's not a great UX for newcomers, triggering confusion and overwhelming anxiety if they encounter it.

And that's why they don't.

And this is the role of research when advocating UX improvements:

Those of us who've been using LC for years know about the Downloads page and visit it often. And because we're so familiar with it, we often share the URL with others looking for a particular version.

But that's not how newcomers get LiveCode.

Good UX practice requires us to set aside our own personal work habits and try as much as we can to imagine the flow of things to the new user. Here that means clearing our cache and our cookies, and starting where newcomers start, at the front page.

When we take the time to start at the front page and look for a download option in the way that a newcomer might, we'd find that we'd have to work very hard to find the Wall of a Thousand Links page. Most will probably never come across it at all.

Much more readily accessible is a Download button, near the upper-right when call-to-action elements are most commonly found.

When the user clicks that button, if they're a new user they're asked to fill in a brief form so a direct download link is emailed. For existing customers, the form action immediately proceeds to download the most recent Stable build.

No one ever sees the Wall of a Thousand Links except us old-timers (and those we keep sending there <g>).

IMO there are still opportunities for further refining the initial download, particularly with the .org Community site about which I have no shortage of opinions.

But since none of the other users here in this user-to-user support forum have control over that server, I'll continue sending my suggestions directly to the company, and would encourage the folks here to do the same.

If you do, please use your time and thiers wisely: take a moment to double-check that the user experience you're writing about is indeed the same as the newcomers you're advocating for.
Richard Gaskin
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LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:18 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:53 pm
There are some people who are helping LiveCode dodge the bullets...
That would be all of us who'd like to help the platform thrive. Or at least the subset who also have the time and skills to lend a hand.

LiveCode is an uncommonly expensive software to produce, made freely available for everyone in the world to enjoy.

This effort is subsidized in part by license fees for proprietary editions, but those licensees comprise less than 30% of the audience; 70% of LiveCode users have no obligation to support the project.

Most competing dev tools have been open source much longer and are well funded through corporate sponsorship, funding options LiveCode Ltd. does not currently enjoy.

So as with any healthy open source community, those of us who can help do so.

And I feel quite strongly that the most effective means of promoting LiveCode is to simply make great software with it and let the world know how you did it.

The membership program and proprietary licenses also help, as do code and support contributions.

Most of the people here are among those those helping "LiveCode dodge the bullets".
Richard Gaskin
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bogs
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by bogs » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:07 pm

FourthWorld wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:05 pm
What Max described is actually the work plan. But if you manage projects of this complexity you'll appreciate the deviations that sometimes occur with any plan.
Ah well :) Understandable, anyway.
His observation on the Downloads page is, IMO, spot-on.
... In fact, I felt so strongly about it I did the thing that seems oddly uncommon here: when I had an observation I wanted to share with them, I shared it with them.
... By writing to them I've learned they're fully aware that the current "Wall of a Thousand Links" (a pet term I've come to use for the Downloads page) is not a universal solution.
...But that's not how newcomers get LiveCode.
When I was a newcomer, that actually is how I got Lc the first time. I'm glad to hear it has been fixed in the website, though.
No one ever sees the Wall of a Thousand Links except us old-timers (and those we keep sending there <g>).
Does that mean my newbie status is over? Awwwwww....
:D
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:38 pm

bogs wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:07 pm
Does that mean my newbie status is over? Awwwwww....
:D
Your newbie status ended the moment you delivered the first update to the MC IDE in more than a decade. That's not a simple task, but you dove in and did wonderfully with it. So sorry, after an effort like that you're just another ol' timer now. :)
Richard Gaskin
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bogs
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by bogs » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:16 pm

Awww.. <scrubbing toe into the ground> Well there you go Max, Livecodes SO alive it was used to resurrect something that was far more dead than it was :D
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