Is livecode dead?

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:15 pm

My personal tastes also had me question the Minecraft-looking figures and the pop-up, the whole presentation.

But when I discussed this with Kevin he tells me conversion rates are way up, and have grown over time as they refine based on data from the A/B testing.

So while it may not reflect my own tastes, and would not be how I would do it for my own company, I can't argue against measurable results.

If I can refine my ideas within my own company to the point where mine is self-evidently more successful, I may then be able to influence an improvement over the good results he seems to be getting now.

Not a bad use of my time. I'm overhauling my site anyway, and I wouldn't mind increasing revenue by a multiple.
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:45 pm

I wonder if we might consider changing the title of this thread. It doesn't reflect the content of the thread, and we all understand LC is quite alive, yet every day for a week whenever anyone chooses "New Posts" they see this counter-productive anti-marketing bit of micro-content.
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:02 pm

I wonder if we might consider changing the title of this thread.
That is a very wise suggestion, and something I wouldn't hesitate to do were I aware of how to change it.

How about:

Is the message that LiveCode knocks the socks of most other programming languages being got across to the maximum number of people possible?

Clunky, far too long, but if someone could condense that while keeping all the guff that's there . . .
Last edited by richmond62 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by mwieder » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:06 pm

I'd vote against changing the title... MaxV's original intent was the shock value, and that's certainly what drew me in to read the very interesting discussion that I might have otherwise just skipped.

My two cents worth on this: I rarely look at the web site any more except when someone points something out in one of these forums. It's been successively dumbed down to the point where I can't find any useful information on the site. But as Richard said, it's hard to argue with increased revenue from more conversions.

LiveCode/RunRev as a whole has never been very good about creating and maintaining a user community, but they're a business, not a community organization.

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:07 pm

The OP can edit the first post, or a moderator like myself can do it. But I regard editing other people's posts a serious matter, and usually only do so when the post has elements that are clear violations of the Forum Guidelines. This one is just a matter of taste, so it seemed better to discuss it first.
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:13 pm

MaxV's original intent was the shock value
Just so . . .

Well, as we know there are 2 camps:

1. The conciliatory one, led by Richard Gaskin.

2. The "in your face" one which includes myself.

And I believe that both of them have their place.

Now Richard's point basically comes down to the plain and simple fact that newcomers,
fresh, as one might say, to LiveCode, not understanding some of the "subtleties" such as
shock value, employed here, might be scared off.

The shock value, if shock value was what was intended, has, surely, shocked sufficiently,
so now the title can be changed. And then those of us who belong to school #2 can think
up more shockers, and Richard can work out ways to do his middle-man role between
the shockers and the sensitive types at LiveCode central 8)
Last edited by richmond62 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:14 pm

LiveCode/RunRev as a whole has never been very good about creating and maintaining a user community, but they're a business, not a community organization.
Well said, that man <3

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:18 pm

mwieder wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:06 pm
I'd vote against changing the title... MaxV's original intent was the shock value, and that's certainly what drew me in to read the very interesting discussion that I might have otherwise just skipped.
Can you think of a title that might catch your interest but be more grounded in fact?
LiveCode/RunRev as a whole has never been very good about creating and maintaining a user community, but they're a business, not a community organization.
Well, I guess that just means I'm not doing a good job. :) And I'm not really kidding there. With a project like this, where more than 70% of the audience are enjoying the free and open Community Edition, there is a role to coordinate communications between core team and community to facilitate things like platform growth. Some projects call that role "Community Manager", others things like "Community Liaison", but by any name it's a useful role.

That is, when it's done well.

If there's frustration on either side, it may be a reflection of the current Community Liaison. Replacing the person in that role, or augmenting the role with a Community Council, or perhaps a team focused on outreach, are among possible options.

But in all honesty, I don't think any single move will satisfy either the problem or the participants. As we've seen in this thread and the related one about EDU, some of the things being requested are already in place, others have suggestions for refinement but without data to demonstrate how they're more effective than the data-driven approach currently used.

And perhaps more than anything else, the core of the challenge lies with dramatic changes in the world of programming as a whole, which are outside of LC's or our ability to change, so the best we can do is study the changing environment and accommodate it.

I believe the problem is inherently multivariate, and will require a multi-pronged solution.

In what measurable terms might we define the problem? Perhaps that could focus efforts toward solution. Is the goal to get on the TIOBE list on a regular basis? If not, what other goal would be a good metric of reach?
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:25 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:13 pm
The conciliatory one, led by Richard Gaskin.
My aim is less about being conciliatory than effective:

For all the marketing advice given, the title is anti-marketing. This doesn't just misrepresent the state of LiveCode, but also undermines the credibility of the author as a source of marketing advice.

Max has some great ideas. I believe we can have confidence in the good ones, so we don't need to rely on random shock, but instead can evaluate based on merit.

In this case, the underlying ideas have much more merit than the title. Indeed the title undermines the merit.
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:27 pm

Richard Gaskin . . .

I know that, deep in our hearts, we hold a great love for each other, but nearer to the surface . . .

Whatever,

Please, whatever else you do, do not start running yourself down, you are doing a fine job.

And, if I've learnt nothing else in my life, I have learnt is that people are hard to please, and you
will never please all of the people all of the time, and, there is precious little point developing
ulcers, or worse, trying to do that.

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by mwieder » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:29 pm

I don't want to put myself in the position of telling the OP what to do or not to do wrt the title. The discussion has strayed a bit IMO from the original intent, which I think was that it's hard to pin down a strategy for what the mothership is doing, what with three simultaneous loosely-related development streams, occasional blog entries and other messages about what the team is up to, adding yet another license type to the mix, etc... I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about changing the title. My tendency is to leave it, but I'm good with whatever.

I'd rather not get into longer discussions of community maintenance in this thread since it's already wandered over many other somewhat-related topics.

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:45 pm

The FACT is that LiveCode is one of the best entry-level ways for children to get into computer programming,
and as an educator I am 100% "fecked aff" that most educators seem to be wallowing in the mires of Python,
C++, C# and MS Visual Basic, and dragging their charges into them, and as a result turning-off a lot of creative types.

And the thing is that LiveCode cannot make their minds up about anything, and that is demonstrated by their
"forever" licensing stuff which suddenly changes, and so on, as well as their confusing presentation . . .

I cannot help thinking they are their own worse enemies.

This year I have made $400 from my programming, and also enhanced my EFL school with 25 new programs for kiddos to improve their English. And, as Professor Sanke has extremely generously paid for me to have a 2 year licence to the "Indie" version, I would not object in the slightest in investing half my profits (however small they are!) if I could see what was actually going on beyond the continued development of the IDE.

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by jacque » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:55 pm

The title has bothered me too. It implies there's a serious problem, and is likely to scare off new viewers.
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:01 pm

The title has bothered me too.
Well then it is definitely time to call in MaxV or one of the "overseers" to change the title licketty-split.

I have just e-mailed one of the overseers privately to request that 8)
Last edited by richmond62 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:04 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:45 pm
And the thing is that LiveCode cannot make their minds up about anything, and that is demonstrated by their
"forever" licensing stuff which suddenly changes, and so on, as well as their confusing presentation . . .
I can report that this is a source of frustration on their side as well, since many of the changes they undertake are in response to user suggestions.

Imagine you live next door to Tony Robbins, and he comes over one day with a list if things you could be doing differently to change your life. Well, it's Tony Robbins, and with his fleet of helicopters maybe there's something to it. So while it might be reasonably off-putting to have a neighbor come over and start telling you how to run your house, because of the demonstrated accomplishments of the speaker you might at least give him a few minutes to make a case.

Now imagine that all your neighbors, who are good ordinary people but not Tony Robbins, come to your house and start telling you how to live in it. And imagine many of them are telling you things that are the opposite of what others are telling you. And some of them are yelling. Amidst the ruckus, by what means could you separate the useful guidance from the noise? Esp. when you're just trying to get to your car so you can get to work.

This is why I advocate expressing ideas in terms of specific, actionable plans, and taking at least some time to think the plan through and describe it in compelling business terms. Because if you can do that you'll be in a very small category of people who are not shy with their opinions, allowing such a plan to rise above the noise to at least be read.
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