Is livecode dead?

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richmond62
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Why isn't LiveCode being adopted much more than it is?

Post by richmond62 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:14 pm

since many of the changes they undertake are in response to user suggestions.
RIGHT! (Yes, that is in capitals as it is meant as the equivalent of a shout)

Then LiveCode have 2 options:

1. Ignore any user suggestions: and explicitly state that they are not interested in user suggestions.

What's the fancy phrase? Aha: "Either shut up or put up."

They might end up getting a lot of respect just because they express a view strongly instead of
appearing all "wishy-washy".

I use both GIMP and LibreOffice: I cannot find anything on their websites about taking tent of any user suggestions - doesn't stop me using their excellent products.

2. Assess all current user suggestions, decide on which they want to run with, release a statement
to that effect, and then run with those suggestions for at least a towmond regardless of any flack
they may get during that period.

I do believe that part of "the problem" (such as it is) is that the blogs
(which recently seem to have dried up) never "talk" directly to users, they rather talk
about specific programming problems.

It might not be a bad idea to have a Specific Programming Blog (Recipe of the Week), and another Blog speaking to users and explaining explicitly why certain decisions are taken, so the
"cult of mystery" is dispelled and things become healthier.
Last edited by richmond62 on Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:56 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:14 pm
since many of the changes they undertake are in response to user suggestions.
RIGHT! (Yes, that is in capitals as it is meant as the equivalent of a shout)

Then LiveCode have 2 options...
Respectfully, a false dichotomy: #1 isn't done because it would of course be without value, and #2 is impractical given the volume of noise.

One part of any number of available middle paths might be to see if someone in the community would be willing to take on the role of a sort of liaison between community and core team. When specific actionable plans are presented, that person can then include them in meetings with the team, and working together we can evaluate the efficacy of a workplan and see if it can be put into motion.

There are many other options as well. Certainly more than just two that aren't actionable.
I do believe that part of "the problem" (such as it is) is that the blogs
(which recently seem to have dried up) never "talk" directly to users, they rather talk
about specific programming problems.
Then skip the blog and join the use-list. We're only 6 days into the month and already there are at least a dozen replies to community questions from core team members there.
It might not be a bad idea to have a Specific Programming Blog (Recipe of the Week)
This Week in LiveCode handles that and a whole lot more - includes a summary of interesting community discussions, updates on development, a summary of key changes, a link to recent pull requests, Bug of the Week, and a list of projects the team could use a hand with:
https://livecode.github.io/this-week-in-livecode/

It's published every week for the last two years, and has an RSS feed you can add to your favorite aggregator. And if you don't have a favorite aggregator, your Community Liaison has included that as a key section of LiveNet so you can read it right in the IDE (see Development -> Plugins - GoLiveNet).
and another Blog speaking to users and explaining explicitly why certain decisions are taken, so the
"cult of mystery" is dispelled and things become healthier.
The "why" about things is part of the discussions already taking place (This Week in LiveCode, use-list, the two forums here they frequent, the other forums when they get a chance, the blog, the discussions included in bug reports, the discussions for each pull request on GitHub, Gitter, chat, etc.).

There's not much mystery if you read what's available.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:12 pm

Richard,

Thanks for taking the time to address each of my points.
#1 isn't done because it would of course be without value
I wonder: at least it might stop LiveCode feeling a bit unstable and continually mucking around with their pricing strategy and their website.
the role of a sort of liaison between community and core team
Um, isn't that you?

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:20 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:12 pm
Richard,

Thanks for taking the time to address each of my points.
#1 isn't done because it would of course be without value
I wonder: at least it might stop LiveCode feeling a bit unstable and continually mucking around with their pricing strategy and their website.
Changes to both pricing and the website are a combination of changes to the business environment and a mix of what people say they want balanced against what they actually do.

If you have specific actionable suggestions for further refinement let's discuss them.

But "It needs to change!" followed by "Too much change!" is both not actionable and difficult to reconcile. :)
the role of a sort of liaison between community and core team
Um, isn't that you?
Yep. And I do regularly present specific issues/concerns/ideas when I speak with them. Between their schedule and mine (it's a volunteer role) we've not had fortnightly meetings since Peter Brett was there. But I have corresponded with Mark, and talked with Kevin several times, including offering feedback on the Community Membership program and other initiatives relevant to the Community Edition.
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by Newbie4 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:48 pm

One of the main complaints in many recent posts is that the web page does not do LiveCode justice and may be one of reasons why LiveCode is not more popular.

It has been said
My personal tastes also had me question the Minecraft-looking figures and the pop-up, the whole presentation.

But when I discussed this with Kevin he tells me conversion rates are way up, and have grown over time as they refine based on data from the A/B testing.

So while it may not reflect my own tastes, and would not be how I would do it for my own company, I can't argue against measurable results.
So what if it increased the conversion rate. That says it is better than what was. That does not mean that it is good. For all we know, it went from 20 users to 30 users. The big question is how does it compare in conversion rates with it's competitors? That is the number we want to shoot for, not just incrementally better.

LiveCode does not have to make changes for each of our comments but they do need to listen to them in whole. If multiple people are saying the same things and in other posts over the years, there might just be some truth to them. For the changes: listen to what they say, look at your competitors and what they are doing write and improve.

In an earlier post I said:
For comparison, check out the following languages landing site for new users:

Scratch - https://scratch.mit.edu
Minecraft - https://minecraft.net/en-us/
AppInventor - http://www.appinventor.org
Swift - https://www.apple.com/swift/playgrounds/ and https://www.apple.com/swift/
Add Some of their serious competitors:
Delphi - https://www.embarcadero.com/products/de ... e-download
XoJo - https://www.xojo.com

Look at them.
Now look back on LiveCode's attention getting webpage: https://livecode.com

In no way is LiveCode's website even close to them in clarity, information, attractiveness, etc. LiveCode is not running with the big dogs. According to Tiobe - Delphi is #9, Scratch is #16, Swift is #20, etc.

I am sure that they can come up with many reasons why those languages are where they are and LiveCode is not higher. But my simple point is that LiveCode's webpages are not up to the quality of their competitors and are not helping LiveCode close the gap. Others have said much the same. Don't blame us because we are pointing out the flaws and trying to help with suggestions.

Do the following:
1. talk to users, experts, anyone...get feedback - on the site, on what is most important to them, what isn't, what they like, why the bought, why they did not convert. collect as much data as possible,
2. Study your competitors, research what works and what does not work, read the literature, hire an marketing consultant with a proven track record,
3. Make a few different approaches, put them all up somewhere and do a test focus group study. Get feedback. You could even make copies of your competitor's intro webpage, substitute your own name and see which they prefer. Put the three best for a week and let the visitor's to your site vote on the one they like best. That will get you some marketing capital with users and maybe some press along with it.

You say, where does the time, staff and money come from? Then do what you can. Keep it short and simple. Some info is better than no info. At least do something not just come up with reasons not to do anything

As for the communication issues - too much, too many, not enough info from the core team......... Like you said, there are too many differing opinions. If people have questions or are curious why something is done one way instead of another, why not have a way for people to submit questions to LiveCode staff, dev teams, officers, etc? You could referee them and weed out the nonsense ones, combine like ones and present your edited version to the company. Give them a week to answer them and present them back to us. They do not have to answer questions that are private or business related. They should just say so and leave those ones unanswered.
There may be many at first but as we better understand where the company is coming fro and where they are going, then the questions will subside. You have many users who care about LiveCode and want what's best for it. Our ignorance and lack of understanding is causing a lot of friction. And yes, the concern that the company does not really care about us or what we think. Perhaps our input and our insights can help the company do better in the future.

Perhaps an open "mike" with Kevin might be possible. We could talk to him directly and he could give us a preview of some of their plans and thinking. Maybe even get some input from the user/consumer side of the equation. That would be better than making an announcement of a new pricing plan followed by many subsequent forum posts complaint, questioning and disagreeing with aspects of. it Maybe, just maybe we might have some good ides on how to raise money or get more customers.

As for all the contact, information and documentation the company has already, It may help to list in some central place all that is available and how to get on that list/where to find it/etc.

(stay tuned for chapter 2 - :lol: :lol:
Cyril Pruszko
https://sites.google.com/a/pgcps.org/livecode/
https://sites.google.com/a/setonhs.org/app-and-game-workshop/home
https://learntolivecode.com/

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by mwieder » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:25 pm

Many good points here. The only one I will disagree with is
So what if it increased the conversion rate. That says it is better than what was. That does not mean that it is good. For all we know, it went from 20 users to 30 users. The big question is how does it compare in conversion rates with it's competitors? That is the number we want to shoot for, not just incrementally better.
LC is never going to be in the top ten of programming environments. And doesn't need to be. It's a different sort of thing. I think the important thing to shoot for is making sure that LC as a company has enough of a revenue stream to keep itself comfortably in business so that the team can keep improving the product, and so that we as users don't have to keep looking over our shoulders to see when the plug is going to get pulled.

I can and do take exception to business decisions the company has made, but fortunately nobody takes my advice, and LC is still around. :shock:

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:19 am

Newbie4 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:48 pm
Do the following:
1. talk to users, experts, anyone...get feedback - on the site, on what is most important to them, what isn't, what they like, why the bought, why they did not convert. collect as much data as possible,
2. Study your competitors, research what works and what does not work, read the literature, hire an marketing consultant with a proven track record,
3. Make a few different approaches, put them all up somewhere and do a test focus group study. Get feedback. You could even make copies of your competitor's intro webpage, substitute your own name and see which they prefer. Put the three best for a week and let the visitor's to your site vote on the one they like best. That will get you some marketing capital with users and maybe some press along with it.
What led you to believe the company isn't doing those? They say they do, and I've seen some of that firsthand. They don't do all of them perfectly, but no one does, and they report improving results with current methods.

One part of this ongoing narrative I find most challenging is not merely that it appears predicated on a presumption that the company isn't doing obvious things, but that little if any of this evidences an understanding of the user's choices and market trends which have increased the popularity of other languages over time.

See Richmond's recent posts in the EDU thread where he posted snippets of real-world educator feedback.

Each language is different. What works to evangelize one may not work for others. A unique offering requires a unique message. It does little to say, "See? We're just like X!" if the prospect already has X.

Like Ford said, "If I asked my customers I would have made a faster horse." In UX we ask customers, but we also observe them. We note the differences between what they say and what they do. And we research smaller subsets of elements, and larger trends of products and ideas, and balance those into the equation. It's not simple stuff.

There's more to do than finding a sexy pitch or copying the look and feel of a web site. There are practical constraints in play, many involving long-term industry trends beyond LC's control or ability to influence. An understanding of the market's needs - technical, economic, psychological, social - is not easy to come by, and even harder to tailor one's product to address. Any proposal that doesn't soberly acknowledge and account for those factors will be of limited value.

We enjoy xTalks, and most of us feel LC is the most powerful in that branch of programming languages. It serves a uniquely valuable place among the world's great languages. It doesn't need to replace those, and probably never will. All it needs is enough recognition to maintain the role it serves in the larger universe of development options.
Richard Gaskin
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:21 pm

a presumption that the company isn't doing obvious things
One of the reasons for this presumption maybe due to the fact that LiveCode keep bandying
about the word "Community" in such a way that members of that "Community" imagine that means
LiveCode should be telling that "Community" more about itself than it does.

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:48 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:21 pm
a presumption that the company isn't doing obvious things
One of the reasons for this presumption maybe due to the fact that LiveCode keep bandying
about the word "Community" in such a way that members of that "Community" imagine that means
LiveCode should be telling that "Community" more about itself than it does.
See above:
FourthWorld wrote:
richmond62 wrote:I do believe that part of "the problem" (such as it is) is that the blogs
(which recently seem to have dried up) never "talk" directly to users, they rather talk
about specific programming problems.
Then skip the blog and join the use-list. We're only 6 days into the month and already there are at least a dozen replies to community questions from core team members there.
richmond62 wrote:It might not be a bad idea to have a Specific Programming Blog (Recipe of the Week)
This Week in LiveCode handles that and a whole lot more - includes a summary of interesting community discussions, updates on development, a summary of key changes, a link to recent pull requests, Bug of the Week, and a list of projects the team could use a hand with:
https://livecode.github.io/this-week-in-livecode/

It's published every week for the last two years, and has an RSS feed you can add to your favorite aggregator. And if you don't have a favorite aggregator, your Community Liaison has included that as a key section of LiveNet so you can read it right in the IDE (see Development -> Plugins - GoLiveNet).
richmond62 wrote:and another Blog speaking to users and explaining explicitly why certain decisions are taken, so the
"cult of mystery" is dispelled and things become healthier.
The "why" about things is part of the discussions already taking place (This Week in LiveCode, use-list, the two forums here they frequent, the other forums when they get a chance, the blog, the discussions included in bug reports, the discussions for each pull request on GitHub, Gitter, chat, etc.).

There's not much mystery if you read what's available.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by MaxV » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:11 am

Hi everybody,
I was stuck in the snow (very unusual in Italy :lol: ) so I didn't follow this thread for some days.
I posted this in off topic section to avoid too serious flames, however I could change the title, what do you suggest? Frankly I don't want to offend anybody, I really love livecode, and appreciate all the livecode team, but these are the first titles I get in my mind:
  • Killing me softly
  • Kamikazeee!
  • black Friday during cyber monday, with early bird ticket for legoland
  • What do you improve in Livecode strategies?
  • Am I the only lost with livecode roadmap?
  • You have just 1 day to found this...
  • I always wished for a printed copy of a Dictionary full of bugs...
  • Raspberry edition is left to volunteer, but there isn't a guide to compile it.
  • Write less and once, run everywhere, but keep it secret
  • News are just for our customers, who care for new customers?
  • Try livecode, only this way you could figure what is it...
  • Responsive extravaganza
  • 8.1.7.rc2.dp4.gm3.stable.BFG9000
  • Our youtube channel? It's the very small icon a the very end of our home page, because nobody see youtube...
  • We aren't dead, we don't post on our social network channels for more than 6 months because we don't believe people use social networks...
  • Keep it secret! The best strategy to have new customers!
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: http://livecodeitalia.blogspot.it
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by bogs » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:59 am

MaxV wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:11 am
... I could change the title, what do you suggest? Frankly I don't want to offend anybody, I really love livecode, and appreciate all the livecode team, but these are the first titles I get in my mind:
  • Am I the only one lost without a livecode roadmap?
  • You have just 1 day to found this...
  • Write less and once, run everywhere, but keep it secret
  • 8.1.7.rc2.dp4.gm3.stable.BFG9000
Of the many that made me chuckle, I liked these the best :twisted:
ImageImage

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by FourthWorld » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:58 am

If you're going for random shock value, why not get meta with it and make that the title:

"Random Shock Value"
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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:52 am

Am I the only lost with livecode roadmap?
Well, I for one wonder why you would use that for any type of navigation whatsoever.

When new features are integrated into LiveCode that's jolly nice, and I often have some
fun tinkering around with them.

The road map is what it is, and that is a list of INTENTIONS, and, I don't know about you,
but an awful lot of my intentions tend to get mislaid, forgotten, superseded by the
march of time, and so forth.

I am also sure that LiveCode's intentions as marked out in the roadmap are put there
in good faith.

From a selfish, personal point of view (and, I think if we are all brutally honest round
these parts none of us are "moaning" about certain aspects of LiveCode out of pure,
unalloyed altruism) I think that LiveCode's main difficulty is a matter of presentation,
not the product itself.

I think LiveCode, the programming language/IDE/what-have-ye really rocks
(err: I've stuck with it for about 16 years so far).

I do think that about half that list consists of rather cheap shots, and those cheap shots
only serve to obfuscate the discussion.

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by Newbie4 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:43 pm

Either:
1) He was trying to interject some levity into a very serious discussion. Having some fun by adding humor and creativity to the thread. I have done the same.

Or

2) He was acting out of frustration. When people feel that they are not being listened to or taken seriously, they react. What was called “cheap shots” are actually sarcastic and pointed reflections of previous comments and posts. Many feelings and observations of which I understand and sympathize with.

Maybe we do need an offline community group where we can discuss issues, concerns and questions with a point person. That representative could relay and discuss those with the company and returns with answers and information. Call it a “user group”.

...just a random suggestion
Cyril Pruszko
https://sites.google.com/a/pgcps.org/livecode/
https://sites.google.com/a/setonhs.org/app-and-game-workshop/home
https://learntolivecode.com/

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Re: Is livecode dead?

Post by richmond62 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:24 pm

I understand the frustration, and do think that LiveCode are not "being as forthcoming as they might be" (that's understatement, neither a cheap shot or sarcasm:
who is going to have a try at irony?).

However, over a large number of years I have tried the following "techniques":

1. Being grossly offensive.

2. Rude.

3. Shock-a-block.

4. Sarcastic.

And, oddly enough, apart from getting banned a couple of times from the Use-list, there has
been b*gg*r-all response: so, if they listen, as Richard Gaskin keeps insisting they do, they
"sure don't give much sign of it".

So, probably a waste of effort and online-virtual hot breath doing the cheap shots and sarcasm.

In the end, if LiveCode don't start responding, they will start suffering; in fact they may already have done so as commercial uptake seems pretty slim.

Every week I have parents of kids asking "the same old, largely inane questions": I reply, and try my best to be polite (and personally I find that very difficult), because if I just ignored them or responded, "I hear you>' or, even better, got my assistant teacher to say "He is listening." my school would suddenly find like "the pub with no beer", I'd be gae drouthy an aa ma rid-gouns wid hae gang awa til ither dominies an ither skails.

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