My point of view

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MaxV
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My point of view

Post by MaxV » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:17 pm

Hello,
here my perceptions about livecode:
  • Prices are increasing, but livecode IDE quality is lowering. Livecode 8 is not usable at the present. Too many crashes, you can't build Android app and more...
  • http://www.livecode.com website is too anonimous, it isn't clear what is livecode and what it does. Screenshots are missig, operating systems logos are missing. Images with arrows explaining livecode to apps are missing. New developers will never know what is livecode and never download it.
  • the same things for http://www.livecode.org
  • in my opinion, at the present widgets are just a complex way to do the same things you can do with just few clicks with groups
  • there is no advertising of livecode on the web
  • too few videos on youtube about livecode
  • too few people use livecode nowdays
  • everybody never heard of livecode
So I think that next founding campaign would focus on advertising, otherwise livecode will die soon.
What do you think?
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: https://livecode-blogger.blogspot.com
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

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Re: My point of view

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:42 pm

The web sites are undergoing significant change. We're putting together a community team to manage .org, and the .com site will address the very issues you noted.

As for advertising, it costs money. Right now the team is focused on the code, and being among the world's few (only?) teams even attempting to deliver a high-level scripting language with integrated GUI components as integral language elements across seven platforms, resources are limited. Putting more resources on advertising would mean taking resources away from development, something few of us would like to see.

Personally, I think the way to get the word out is for us in the community to build great apps and let folks know how we did it. This keeps us focused on serving our own goals, and along the way LC gets the recognition it deserves in the natural course of us just doing what we love.

Additionally, we have several projects going for expanding the role of LC in education. For example, just last night at our local user group meeting an education doctorate volunteered to work with our EDU outreach team to put together a list of Common Core standards for which we'll find and/or make LC instructional materials for.

There's lots that can be done, and much of it requires little more than us doing what we love to do.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

sritcp
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Re: My point of view

Post by sritcp » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:28 pm

I have said this before elsewhere, but it bears repetition.

Kevin Miller's 60 2-min videos ("App Academy") demonstrating simple, self-contained tasks using LiveCode are an excellent promotional tool (except they are not freely available for prospective LiveCoders).

My suggestion is

i) Make these freely available for everyone.

ii) Experienced LiveCoders should make more of them. How about a target of 1000 2-min videos (a la 1000 widgets)? Flood YouTube with these!

Regards,
Sri

MaxV
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Re: My point of view

Post by MaxV » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:43 am

I love livecode too, I made http://livecode.wikia.com/wiki/Livecode_Wiki and also https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 4K2OaLW-_l
plus guides and blog in my mothertongue, however I feel so lonely.
Too few people know livecode, so we don't reach the critical mass needed to have projects with their own life.
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: https://livecode-blogger.blogspot.com
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

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Re: My point of view

Post by dave.kilroy » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:15 am

@MaxV are you coming to the Edinburgh conference? If so lets meet up and talk about this - what I'd love to do is to have more LiveCode meet ups (along with online stuff like your brilliant http://livecodeitalia.blogspot.co.uk). If you're not coming then DM me so we can make plans...

Kind regards

Dave

PS: where are you in Italy? What's half-way between Plymouth and where you live?
"...this is not the code you are looking for..."

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Re: My point of view

Post by LiveCode_Panos » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:16 pm

.. you can't build Android app and more.
Can you give us some more details on this please? I can successfully create an android standalone in LC 8.x

Newbie4
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Re: My point of view

Post by Newbie4 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:33 pm

Max,
Those are great videos. Now if you could just show the code for each one, new people to LiveCode would get excited and build their programs/game quickly and easily. I always liked the "Cookbook" way - "I know what I want to do, just show me the way to do each thing". I also like those short demos because they also give you ideas of what you can do. They spark people's creative urges. Seeing your demos, makes me want to try each one.

Maybe we could collaborate and build a great beginner's site. Maybe merge your work with mine https://sites.google.com/a/pgcps.org/livecode/. We could have 2 sections - one for small games/projects to do with LiveCode to get used to it (or just to create something useful yourself) and one with "How-To's" showing all the neat effects, actions and other things that you can do.

Great job on those video!
Cyril Pruszko
https://sites.google.com/a/pgcps.org/livecode/
https://sites.google.com/a/setonhs.org/app-and-game-workshop/home
https://learntolivecode.com/

MaxV
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Re: My point of view

Post by MaxV » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:45 am

LiveCode_Panos wrote:
.. you can't build Android app and more.
Can you give us some more details on this please? I can successfully create an android standalone in LC 8.x
See http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17624

At the present you can't use Android apps that work on files with livecode 8! Fortunately livecode 7 is stable and safe.
I'm an expert of livecode, so I can submit an error to livecode; but a beginner that see no app at all and just a crash, abandon livecode immediately.
This is a critical huge bug.
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: https://livecode-blogger.blogspot.com
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

MaxV
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Re: My point of view

Post by MaxV » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:46 am

dave.kilroy wrote:@MaxV are you coming to the Edinburgh conference? If so lets meet up and talk about this - what I'd love to do is to have more LiveCode meet ups (along with online stuff like your brilliant http://livecodeitalia.blogspot.co.uk). If you're not coming then DM me so we can make plans...

Kind regards

Dave

PS: where are you in Italy? What's half-way between Plymouth and where you live?
I'm in Rome, however if you have plans, let me know.
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: https://livecode-blogger.blogspot.com
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

MaxV
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Re: My point of view

Post by MaxV » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:50 am

Newbie4 wrote:Max,
Those are great videos. Now if you could just show the code for each one, new people to LiveCode would get excited and build their programs/game quickly and easily. I always liked the "Cookbook" way - "I know what I want to do, just show me the way to do each thing". I also like those short demos because they also give you ideas of what you can do. They spark people's creative urges. Seeing your demos, makes me want to try each one.

Maybe we could collaborate and build a great beginner's site. Maybe merge your work with mine https://sites.google.com/a/pgcps.org/livecode/. We could have 2 sections - one for small games/projects to do with LiveCode to get used to it (or just to create something useful yourself) and one with "How-To's" showing all the neat effects, actions and other things that you can do.

Great job on those video!
Well, first of all I'd like that anybody add links to http://livecode.wikia.com/wiki/Links , it's a public wiki! Everybody can modify it.
We need to populate with informations, links, anything useful about livecode.
For example I think that it's the only place wehere is easily explaind how to embed an HTML5 app in a webpage (http://livecode.wikia.com/wiki/HTML5)
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: https://livecode-blogger.blogspot.com
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

dave.kilroy
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Re: My point of view

Post by dave.kilroy » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:57 am

Max I was hoping you might be coming to the conference so that interested people could make plans...

Mark Schonewille and Björnke von Gierke have organised a couple of LiveCode days (in Switzerland and Holland I think) which sound like they were good - but I've never been able to make one as either the notice was too short or the dates were wrong for me

Anyway, are you coming to Edinburgh in August?
MaxV wrote:
dave.kilroy wrote:@MaxV are you coming to the Edinburgh conference? If so lets meet up and talk about this - what I'd love to do is to have more LiveCode meet ups (along with online stuff like your brilliant http://livecodeitalia.blogspot.co.uk). If you're not coming then DM me so we can make plans...

Kind regards

Dave

PS: where are you in Italy? What's half-way between Plymouth and where you live?
I'm in Rome, however if you have plans, let me know.
"...this is not the code you are looking for..."

LiveCode_Panos
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Re: My point of view

Post by LiveCode_Panos » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:08 am

MaxV wrote:
LiveCode_Panos wrote:
.. you can't build Android app and more.
Can you give us some more details on this please? I can successfully create an android standalone in LC 8.x
See http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17624

At the present you can't use Android apps that work on files with livecode 8! Fortunately livecode 7 is stable and safe.
I'm an expert of livecode, so I can submit an error to livecode; but a beginner that see no app at all and just a crash, abandon livecode immediately.
This is a critical huge bug.
I agree this is a critical bug (i.e. "the files" and "the folder" commands cause a crash on Android). On the good news, the fix to this bug will be included in LiveCode 8.0.2 RC1, which will be released today.

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Re: My point of view

Post by dave.kilroy » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:19 pm

Yesterday I updated an app for Android (and which uses "the files" quite a few times), built it, tested it on my Nexus 4 and uploaded the .apk to GooglePlay - no sign of a bug...
MaxV wrote:
LiveCode_Panos wrote:
.. you can't build Android app and more.
Can you give us some more details on this please? I can successfully create an android standalone in LC 8.x
See http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17624

At the present you can't use Android apps that work on files with livecode 8! Fortunately livecode 7 is stable and safe.
I'm an expert of livecode, so I can submit an error to livecode; but a beginner that see no app at all and just a crash, abandon livecode immediately.
This is a critical huge bug.
"...this is not the code you are looking for..."

javea71
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Re: My point of view

Post by javea71 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:14 am

Can't help but feel that the Livecode team are prone to shooting themselves in the foot with decisions that are somewhat short sighted. For instance charging for the Edinburgh conference live stream + access to materials.

Developer conferences and Keynote speeches are vitally important in conveying the spirit and intent of an organisation to the public and Edinburgh 2016 is exactly the kind of event that if accessible publicly would help livecode draw more people into the language.

There is such little out there right now, I would really urge them to reconsider these types of paywalls.

Ormente
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Re: My point of view

Post by Ormente » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:53 pm

Can't help but feel that the Livecode team are prone to shooting themselves in the foot
That's also my perception. And they seem to be very good at doing that at every corner of their marketing strategy.

The product pricing is an obvious example... i got very pissed off with what they did!

When i discovered LC, they had a reasonable pricing scheme that changed to a reasonable monthly subscription. Then it became annual... which IMHO is not a subscription anymore, but a pervertion of the traditional one year licence scheme. BTW, usually you pay for one year, and then you benefit from a discounted renewal price for some time...

Nevermind, i found the product interesting and saw they have great ambition to make it even better, so i paid. Shortly after that, price was raised once again and I was asked to pay two years upfront to "lock my price"! Were they kidding me? On top of all the free money raining from crowdfunding?

Please take note: i'm a client whose trust you have to acquire, not an investor.

I let LC down and got back to my usual tools and languages.

Recently I was in the mood to give LC another chance, and tried LC 8. Yes it got better. I liked it. That's not to say it's perfect, but it is a pretty good product. $600 a year is a bit pricey but i thought i'll give it a try for a few weeks and maybe jump back on board. I was ready to dedicate time to LC, to start working with it and advertise it. I even thougtht to open a blog (in french) to talk about it, write tutorials...

But today i saw that the Indy price is to uncrease to $700. TODAY. And then continue it's way to $1000. Unless tomorrow they change their mind and decide it will be $4499!

Sorry guys but once again i'm pissed off! I feel i can't trust LC. The company.

My perception is that LC have a little acquisition problem, but mainly a huge retention problem, and that's why they do such nonsensical pricing. They have to get the maximum upfront, because (probably) most paid users don't stay. By doing so they shoot themselves in the foot, and worsen the acquisition problem.

That's very sad. The product is far far better than the marketing.

Some ideas:
- A monthy subscription in the range of $40-$60 depending of included options.
- An annual licence in the range of $300-$600 (not subsciption), with a 20-50% discount on renewal within X months.
- Only one price for the product, then paid options/modules such as premium support.
- If i paid to version X.Y, i shoud keep the right to compile closed source app with these versions.

In other words, that's the evolution of the product that should be driving me to keep paying, either by mensual subscription or by renewing "annually" from time to time. That's a good contract that guarantee me i'm not throwing my money away, and push both them to keep improving and me to keep paying.

I must add that the recent evolution (of the product) looks good.
I have no commercial project for wich i plan to use LC right now (and won't have util i feel i can trust LC-the-company more), but I AM WILLING TO PAY. I was. I was 'til 15 minutes ago.

I am (a bit) sorry if this post seems harsh but : 1/ things have to be said, and i'm sure lots of others feels the same, and 2/ maybe my words are a bit heavier than i wished because english is not my native language.

Don't get me wrong, i only wish the best success to Livecode, the company and the product. But right now i cant trust the company to have any bright future as they not only shoot themself in the foot, they seems to enjoy doing so.

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