Better site

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Moderators: Klaus, FourthWorld, heatherlaine, robinmiller, kevinmiller

Would you fund a campaign for a better livecode website?

YES
4
25%
NO
12
75%
 
Total votes: 16

Lagi Pittas
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Re: Better site

Post by Lagi Pittas » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:17 pm

Richmond just because you are not interested there are/were 500,000 visual foxpro programmers who would be but there is s learning curve a real application would save a lot of time.

Graphical programs and games are not where consultants who make money solving company problems direct their time. If you are not interested you lose nothing this myopic attitude of if we build it they will come is the big problem.

I don't need an indy licence to do what I do because i leave the source code with the client ... i might get run over by a bus. If i want to sell to the masses i have plenty of choices but at the moment i like the direction livecode as a coherent programming system is going. My suggestion is selfish in a way. .. I want livecode to succeed and give the mass of highly experienced business programmers from the Delphi,vb clipper, foxpro ,delphi to come aboard in a way that makes their entrance easy.the java and c people acho thing .. i wrote voice systems in C and life pensions system for Allied Dunbar and an Insurance project for Lloyds Bank (Black Horse services) years ago not because I liked to but the onsite programmers used it and the contract paid very well. To a programmer with a job in the banks and other large companies they only have a hammer - c or JAVA so eveything looks like a nail.
You are also not going to get somebody writing puzzles for ios on board paying $900 a year to launch a freemium product ... aint gonna happen.

Visual foxpro was used to write the software for the channel tunnel with dbf files limited to 2gigabytes and the data as of 15 years ago was over 200g the programmers beat out the ibms and oracles because they knew foxpro inside out. What could they do with livecode and oracle/postgresssql?

Anyway i'm ramblng and still pissing in the wind another 30 minutes of my life wasted banging my head against a brick wall.

Lagi

richmond62
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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:36 am

my life wasted banging my head against a brick wall
Hey: My Dad said he enjoyed banging his head against a brick wall because it always felt so good when he stopped!

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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:24 am

Richmond just because you are not interested
Yeah, I'm an egocentric maniac . . . and I, of course, am perfectly happy with that :)

BUT, while there may be 500,000 Foxy Cleopatras out there,

there are also 500,000 people who want something other than an accounting system,

something other than a database construction kit.
Graphical programs and games are not where consultants who make money solving company problems direct their time.
Really?

There are plenty of companies that make BIG money that use graphics, whether for game development or for other reasons.
Think of SDLC diagramming software . . .

Yesterday I was in the main Bulgarian office of SevOne [ https://www.sevone.com/ ] to have a chat about
developing an intuitive front-end for some of their stuff [ read GUI ]: now while all that strange world of data analysis
and so forth I don't even pretend to understand may not strike you as obviously in need of graphical stuff some parent
of a girl who is attending my "Livecode for babies" nonsense this Summer was much taken with what she has been
bringing home on her flash-drive, phoned me, and I ended up drawing pictures with marker pens all over
these people's board-room table: fun!

So: Lagi; while you have your obsession with Fox Pro and so forth, I have my obsession with Visual Media and Graphic User Interfaces;
both with perfectly adequate justifications: and, knowing that, Livecode if they really need to prove what ever it is that you think
they need to prove could provide a raft of demo progs. with, at the very least, something to "tickle your ego" and something
to "tickle mine" (although, frankly, I have been 100% sold on Livecode since 2001); and, possibly, all those other areas into which
the all-pervasive world of computer software seems to penetrate nowadays.
Rocks.png
Rocks.png (6.32 KiB) Viewed 3374 times

Lagi Pittas
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Re: Better site

Post by Lagi Pittas » Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Hi

I specifically said consultant ie bespoke programmers who do not have to go up against 500 different one size fits all generic programs
They are the peoplevwho keep oracle going
Just to prove my point i bought the 2 year indy licence when it was offer at 299 i believe and i didnt need to QUAD ERAT DEMONSTRANDUM
And as i said you who has been a groupie for 15 years didnt think it was worth it to you. If everybody thought that way LC would have been dead years ago.

You have a non terminating licence so you decided to forgo until some white knight bought it but what happens in 2 years. What I am suggesting is not a demo but a full fledged working system there is no point in doing a version of photoshop but the bread and butter application have kept me in business for 35 years - not all stock controls but a payroll systems, insurance systems multiple invoicing and accounting systems but all bespoke. If there had been a good realworld example with source it would have made my life easier.

And i mean this In the best possible taste ... Just because its not what you want please don't piss on my parade

Lagi

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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:03 pm

a groupie for 15 years
Ha, Ha, Ha: I wonder how many of the long-term Livecode users would describe me as a "groupie"?

A "groper" more like.

Calm down and moderate your tone a spot: it doesn't do to get offensive: I know that even if
no-one else does.

And I am not "pissing on your patch", what I am doing is putting forth a different point of view.

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Re: Better site

Post by Lagi Pittas » Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:38 pm

Im not being offensive you eould certsinly know if i was ... snglo saxon words the dictionary doesnt have.

Anyway the reason I am a little miffed is that uou gave no constructive reason oyher than you are not interested yes and my point was tgat the cost for the paid for version is too steep fir a few graphic puzzles or very specific programs that dont sell enough to make enough money to make it worth your while to pay the yearly .. you being a prime example give me your reason if i am wrong.
We both want Livecode to succeed im putting an idea there as food for thought snd maybe a lively discourse not to be shot down with a simple well "im not interested so nobody else will be"
Btw Groupie was used to get attention it doesnt shock as much as an ice bucket and I didnt want to use the Guinea pig trick again.

And please do take it personally this is out of sheer frustration as marketing seems to be missing a rudder or maybe it has 3 rudders? If Im gona be offensive it's best in the same room not on a forum :wink:

Lagi


Ps have you got any ideas to get a young schoolkid who has an idea for an ios program to be able to purchase an indie for 700 dollars at the moment. Maybe if they got 10,000 of the people i am suggesting it could allow a lower cost entry for ios on the app store.
Why is nobody addressing this? You cant write apps for the appstore without paying $700 ... I would be real miffed if after writing my app i then found out Apple wont accept it with the open source version.

Over to you Richmond

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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:39 pm

As to the Apple store and all the other nonsense: I transitioned from Macintosh to Linux about 12 years ago
out of commercial necessity rather than anything else. I was, at that time, convinced that Macintosh was the
best OS going; over time, especially as Apple seemed, increasingly, to go in for restrictive practices, and, as I bought
my wife (who is most definitely not a "computer person") a MacBook Air for a present, seeing what Mac OS has become,
I have really become a great fan of Linux and, more importantly, open source.

Now, I produce 3 programs that mess around with outdated writing systems, mainly for academics, and in the case
of my Devawriter Pro people who are either Hindus or into the whole "Bhogi-Yogi" thing. The money I have made from
those has always come from where it was not looked for, and as my programs are currently free (but not open source),
I have been pleasantly surprised by people prepared to send me 100 bucks even though they can have the thing for nix.

I do appreciate that Apple and Microsoft put a lot of work into their operating systems, and as a result are perfectly entitled
to charge money for them. What I don't appreciate and think is, frankly, disgusting, is Apple the skimming off money from applications
developed by other people to work on their operating system(s).

But I suffer from a serious problem, I am, at base, an anarcho-capitalist, who believes in a totally free market.
Now, obviously, that also means that Apple should be allowed to play their "naughty little game" with the App store if
they want to: but it also means that I should be allowed to make applications for the Mac OS that runs on their system without
all sorts of "this is not authorised" type messages.

P.S. My iPad is jailbroken, my Xubuntu Linux is "personalised" to blazes, and you should see my iMac G5 and what I have done to
both 10.4.11 and 10.5.8.

I have paid money to Livecode/RunRev in the past, and will again come the time I have some to pay. The fact that a very generous
donor bought me a 2 year licence was unlooked for: I am extremely grateful, and it would have been extremely churlish to have
refused the gift.

Lagi: you get me wrong: while I have been "mad about Livecode" for 15 years, I have let that madness manifest itself by being a
right "pain in the bum" to the people at Livecode (don't believe me? check with them!). The reason I have been a pain in the bum is
because I believe, several times, they have gone astray.

Certainly, I agree with you insofar as I do think Livecode could do a hell of a lot more to push/promote/explain their product.

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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:28 pm

The iOS lot (Apple) are the guilty party, and not Livecode.

This is Apple's loss = restricting the number of apps that are available for their OS will ultimately tell against them.

Why should we care? After all, all an iPad is is a toy; not a computer. Admittedly it's a toy for rich people and
children with rich parents; and acquiring a bit of their money is probably a desirable thing.

However, there are more ways to skin a dead cat than "Cookie" and his merry men would like us to know.

Certainly, my jailbroken iPad version 1 (read: no camera) doesn't give a flying "fudge" about Tim Cook and
his anti-competitive practices.

I know that Livecode are very, very careful when it comes to iOS: they have to be; Kevin Miller does NOT want
to get into a "lover's tiff" with Tim Cook, because you can be absolutely sure it will be thin on the love and
thick on the tiff.

For years I was fooled by Apple as they and their dedicated fan-base played the poor, deprived schoolboy versus Microsoft's
big bully. The first thing that made me feel uncomfortable was when someone at SIU Carbondale (where I discovered both
Mac (7.0) and Windows (3.1)) asked me why I was using ClarisWorks (Apple's prop. WP suite) rather than MSO for Mac.
If these 2 were in competition how-come Microsoft were selling an office suite for Mac?

Later, as the Great Dictator (Uncle Steve) succumbed to his Vegan, Bhogi-Yogi diet and method of medication, and his bonkers-ness
spread like a canker through Apple, and he was succeeded by Cookie (instead of Phil Schiller; which surprised me),
I saw Apple induging in all the crap they had been accusing Bill Gates and Co. of all along.

Livecode, Kevin Miller, and so on, while being competitive and producing a very good product indeed are not
indulging in disgusting practices like Apple and Microsoft. Arguably they are being a bit too gentlemanly,
but that may not because they are soft, but because there are a lot of hard bastards out there who would
like to eat Livecode for breakfast.

Please do not blame Livecode for the fact that Apple wants to keep everything tied to its corporate bosom.

As Apple's 2 operating systems (Mac OS and iOS) are increasingly being dumbed down (particularly Mac OS) they
will increasingly become the "thang" for Paris Hilton and other Barbie doll types of all sexes (Trans OS, anyone?),
and Microsoft, with their crappy, second-rate OS will predominate unless either Linux finally gets 'there" (wherever "there" is),
or a new OS arises to compete with Microsoft.

Apple is, I believe, shooting itself in the foot with its App-store: I tried to install GIMP-for-Mac on my wife's MacBook Air
("Air" as in "Airhead" presumably) and the thing was blocked. F*cking-H*ll: I paid for the thing (and working in Bulgaria
that is more painful than in some other parts of the world), and as a result, the damn thing is ours and we should be
able to do what we want with the thing!

Sorry for that major rant: but I feel like a lover spurned, as, I'm sure, do many other people who believed in Macintosh
as a superior, more open, system to Microsoft Windows.

And: while my "relationship" with Livecode has always been both rocky and tempestuous, I would always stick up
for them against the likes of Cookie (Apple), Satya "Tamas Guna" Nadella (Microsoft), Mr Slugworth (Ubuntu) and Mr Squeaky (Free Software Foundation).

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Re: Better site

Post by jacque » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:39 pm

Apple is, I believe, shooting itself in the foot with its App-store: I tried to install GIMP-for-Mac on my wife's MacBook Air
("Air" as in "Airhead" presumably) and the thing was blocked.
Did you change the Gatekeeper preferences to install from unknown developers?
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw dot com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

richmond62
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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:24 pm

Did you change the Gatekeeper preferences to install from unknown developers?
Ouch!

Thanks for the tip :)

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Re: Better site

Post by Mariasole » Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:07 pm

I also give my humble opinion! :D
The LiveCode/RunRev site should be done only in Live Code Server.
It should be underlined on every page of the site.
In this way the product, as David Ogilvy said, would speak alone. :wink:
Also the most beautiful parts, could be explained by publishing sources.

Thank you!
(='.'=)
Mariasole
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Re: Better site

Post by rinzwind » Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:27 pm

Yup the LC site should be made in LC. Eat your own food etc.
Could be a lot of work... true. Make it OS and it could be a well received project and increase the number of LC servers. If the platform and product is worth it.

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Re: Better site

Post by Lagi Pittas » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:17 pm

You mean it isn't? Shurley Shome Mishtake!!

Bloody good idea though - a good project using say revigniter?

Lagi

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Re: Better site

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:43 pm

rinzwind wrote:Yup the LC site should be made in LC. Eat your own food etc.
Could be a lot of work... true.
As someone who's built CMSes in LC, I agree, it's a LOT of work. Mine have been very specific; I don't have the resources to reproduce in LC all the things the Wordpres, Joomla, and Drupal communities have built up over the years.

Given that the team is of finite size, which engine features and fixes would the readers here prefer to see the core team set aside so they can reproduce Wordpress in LC?

I agree it's a nice goal, but LC Server isn't the strongest component of LC's value. Where LC really shines is in building native GUI apps for desktop and mobile. While there's nothing else on earth that delivers integrated GUI elements in a high-level language for as many platforms, there's nothing LC Server provides that isn't already well handled by PHP, save for the benefit of allowing those who know LC to also enjoy the same language on the server.

That's just my opinion about resources among the engine team, of course. I do believe that crafting an excellent CMS, perhaps on top of Ralf's excellent revIgniter, would be a nice addition to our community. And because it's all just scripts it doesn't require anyone on the engine team at all. Any sufficiently interested community member could start work on it today. I can't manage a project of that scope, but I'd definitely contribute to it if someone else can take the helm.
Richard Gaskin
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Re: Better site

Post by Mariasole » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:11 pm

I'm glad to have thrown the stone in the pond! :D

To me it seems obvious that the site of LiveCode is done in LiveCode, as it is obvious that the site of php.net site is not done in ASP! :shock:

I understand your concerns Richard, are all true, and the staff that deals with the implementation of LiveCode can not be subtracted from the development of LiveCode (including LCS) to develop the site in LiveCode! :roll:
It would be a paradox! :lol:

But the fact that we have a revolutionary language server that allows ALL to program a new Wordpress (why not overcome the sadness of the known platforms) would be nice, right? :D

It would be a dream, just like LiveCode, software that has fascinated artists because they can create with their own hands (also on the server) without resorting to intermediaries! :D :D :D

LC Server is very little advertised, fortunately the hosting companies are beginning to offer it (but it should be RunRev to promote it everywhere in the companies!) Because the web, thanks to LC does not end with Drupal! :wink:

Sorry the romance ... but who has an ambitious company that has an excellent server language should believe it.
And if a chef does not eat his pasta, some doubt to go to his restaurant is, no? Oh what a bad English, however it is understood! :roll:

Peace and love
(='.'=)
Mariasole
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