Better site

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Moderators: Klaus, FourthWorld, heatherlaine, robinmiller, kevinmiller

Would you fund a campaign for a better livecode website?

YES
4
25%
NO
12
75%
 
Total votes: 16

MaxV
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Better site

Post by MaxV » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:37 pm

I really don't like the current livecode website, I think that doesn't show what livecode really is; on the contrary it betrays the true spirit of livecode. It' s so anonymous and so vague that could be anything. I can't read anywhere that you can create a software for windows/mac/linux/Android/iOS/web, it just seems a tool just for iOS like: As you can see there are tons of site similar and better to the current livecode web site. Livecode is much more than those sites, and people will never know it.
I don't like only criticize without proposing a solution.
What do you think to subscribe a campaign for a new and better website?
I hope that Mr. Kevin Miller read this post.
Last edited by MaxV on Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: https://livecode-blogger.blogspot.com
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makeshyft
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Re: Better site

Post by makeshyft » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:06 pm

a good website no longer costs a lot of money, you just need to use available technology better and challange your staff to do better work. I would laugh if they started a funding campaign for a better site. its a no for me, but i would love to see a better site.
Tom @
http://www.makeshyft.com
---------------------------------
Changing the Future, Today!

FourthWorld
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Re: Better site

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:55 pm

I was going to write what Tom beat me to.

The web site is undergoing significant revision right now, so we'll likely see some improvements over the next few weeks.

I hope they include a strong emphasis on LiveCode's omni-platform capabilities, because that's probably the most important aspect of its value. There are many great tools for making mobile apps, and for making desktop apps, but very few for as many platforms as LiveCode covers and perhaps none provide that coverage with a learning curve as gentle.

The one thing that's mystified me for many years is how hard it is to find a showcase of great apps made with LiveCode at the site. I know such apps exist - many were made by my friends, most are very profitable, and more than a few have even won awards. I just don't see many at the site, and the few I can find I have to hunt for, rather than having them brought to my attention as soon as I arrive there.

Looking for examples of what has been made with a development tool is the first thing most prospects do when they arrive at a tool provider's site.

This has been discussed many times in the community, and echoed with consistent acknowledgment in every conversation I've had with team members at the company about this.

And yet through all these years it remains perhaps the single most critical lost opportunity at the site, and given the universal understanding of its importance I don't understand why.

Fingers crossed that a complete and prominent showcase is among the priorities currently in development for the site.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

SimuG
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Re: Better site

Post by SimuG » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:13 pm

Agreed 100%. I am deliberating between LiveCode and Xojo (terrible name).

Xojo has a reasonable showcase, with screenshots etc. LiveCode has

Code: Select all

www .livecode. com/livecode-stories/
which has "stories" and testimonials, this IMO has absolutely no relevance to what the product can do, furthermore there are no screenshots.

The new home page shows the making of an iOS app, but again if you didn't know better you would think that LiveCode can ONLY do iOS apps. To add insult to injury, the old

Code: Select all

http ://livecode. com /showcase/
is 404!!!

I know Xojo can do apps like

Code: Select all

http ://www .xojo. com/community/casestudies/irehearse. php[/b]
and I found that LiveCode can do apps like this

Code: Select all

 http ://mattercat. com/MatterCat/MatterCat. html
I HOPE you guys get my point.

Surely it would be relatively easy to showcase completed apps to date, sorted by date, (which after a lot of trawling I discovered are many and varied) and most important of all include screenshots AND screenshots from all relevant platforms.

I'm still VERY confused as to what direction to go.

p.s. sorry first post so obviously links are disabled.

FourthWorld
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Re: Better site

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:26 pm

FWIW I have a meeting scheduled with Steven Crighton,, LC's web architect, early next week. As your community advocate I'll make the concerns expressed here a high priority in my discussion with him. Thanks for posting this thread - community feedback is an important part of any process of continual improvement.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

AxWald
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Re: Better site

Post by AxWald » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:28 pm

Hi,
FourthWorld wrote:FWIW I have a meeting scheduled with Steven Crighton [- snip -] community feedback is an important part of any process of continual improvement.
So I checked the site for a critical review. This is what I have to say:

Most prominent on the web site:
Everyone Can Create Apps
(Bold by me)
And then, most slowly, loads an animation showing LC on a laptop, followed by two phones ...

With examples I'd expect for a computer training for pre-school children :/

And then, to add insult to injury:
What People Are Saying
Yes, we all are known to believe such credentials, aren't we?

You have to dig quite deep into the web site to find out that LC isn't only a training "app" for pre-schools, and that it is not only for making fancy "apps"!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can easily imagine how a coder (unknown to LC) feels that gets a lightning fast, free OSS tool from me and wants to have a look at the dev. environment that makes such things - and, people, see me blushing only by thinking of it!

Would I not come from HC, and would I not have tried MC, as well as early incarnations of Revolution, I'd run screaming too, I'm quite sure. It doesn't look at all like something usable for adults/ pros, it looks like a toy for pupils.

A few points that are lacking, IMHO:
  • Start with a reference to HyperCard, if possible:
    "HyperCard revolutionized programming. LiveCode revolutionized HyperCard!" or such (I'm not a good texter ...)
    Give them ppl an idea about what LC is, where it comes from, etc. No sermon needed, but a short explanation should be possible, right?
    .
  • Prominently show ALL the platforms where the IDE runs, and where you can compile to!
    This is one of the most useful features of LC!
    It may be that Apple gadgets are very popular among the LC people. But else, compared to "the rest of us (tm)", this walled-in platform is at best "recognizable in certain areas" - so have native Android pictures, Linux, Windows, whatever on the site - just not only Apples!
    .
  • Make sure the people realize that you can both make "apps" as well as full fledged programs!
    "Hello world" on a phone is nice and cozy, but show a real program, too!
    LC has such an amount of really good features, limiting it to "app making" only is a sin, and Bill Atkinson will wait for you at the gates of hell, and will have reserved a special chamber for you!
    Beware! Regret! You may still be saved! ;-)
Hope you get the idea. Have fun!
Livecode programming until the cat hits the fan ...

richmond62
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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:31 pm

NO: LiveCode is most definitely NOT "a toy for pupils": I have just had a load of pupils struggling quite hard to get their heads round
programming concepts.

If you want a "toy for pupils" go away and play with TOYS like Scratch, which will allow you to play but teach you precious little
in terms of transferrable skills.

Anything that says it is EASY on its website is both lying (Yes, LiveCode is NOT easy and that's a lie) and insults an awful lot of
people's intelligence.

If LiveCode were EASY how come most of the users are still learning stuff after 15+ years with the thing?

So; we're all f*cking morons are we that we STILL don't find everything easy and whip up sophisticated apps in an afternoon.

I took 4 years to develop my Devawriter: and I am most definitely not a moron.

What the website could state, accurately, is that LiveCode is relatively easy for beginners to get started with; but that is not the same
as "easy".
Last edited by richmond62 on Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mwieder
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Re: Better site

Post by mwieder » Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:37 am

If LiveCode were EASY how come most of the users are still learning stuff after 15+ years with the thing?
OK - I realize it's a rhetorical question but nonetheless...

because there's a depth to it that's not apparent when you start out.
You can get your feet wet and actually get things accomplished, but the more you learn the more you find there is to learn.
Some of them not as obvious as others.
There are layers within layers and it's turtles all the way down.

AxWald
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Re: Better site

Post by AxWald » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:55 am

Hi Richmond,
richmond62 wrote:NO: LiveCode is most definitely NOT "a toy for pupils"
I hope I wasn't misunderstood regarding my post above yours - when I talked about "toy for pupils" I was referring to the impression the web site gave me!

Have fun!
Livecode programming until the cat hits the fan ...

richmond62
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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:03 pm

Don't worry AxWald; I forgive you, let's kiss and make up.

You are exactly right: the RunRev site is disingenuous.

richmond62
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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:52 am

The Livecode is Far, Far better than it was 1i months ago.

That does not say it hasn't still got stuff to sort out.

But, Hey, that goes for all of us!

Lagi Pittas
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Re: Better site

Post by Lagi Pittas » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:43 pm

Hi

I was promised by heather 15 months ago that big changes would be coming to the website.

The one person I have NEVER seen answer a question a get into the debate is Steve Crighton - I read his blog where he admits he "faked' it before he made it using wordpress.

He should get on here and get our collective wisdom and do something.

Creating a website is also about the words, the navigation making sure that we don't get 404 pages or old links in the forum just going to the root page.

Steve you could create a second site on a subdomain that we could all help with text,articles etc I hope its a "Not invented here" syndrome.

I think asking for money for a better site has to be a joke, you don't need 5 people creating a site that's based on Wordpress you need somebody who understands wordpress or is a good listener and can take advice freely given - preferably both

Sorry if this offends but sometimes the truth hurts.

Lagi

RossG
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Re: Better site

Post by RossG » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:05 pm

As long as I can remember the complaint about the
learning tools provided for any programming language
has been that they show you how to make the "bits" but
not how to put them together to produce a useful programme.

Same applies to LC. Sure it's easy enough to get "Hello World"
to appear in a little box but what then? "Hello World" appearing
in two little boxes?

It was only my (limited) experience with FoxPro2 and Clipper
in the days of DOS which got me past the "Hello World" stage.
It was all up-hill and then some.

I had to invent my own way of programming. I'm not saying that
it was unique but just seemed the only way.

Let's hope that LC tutorials will give the learner something meatier
to follow after "Hello World" has started to pall (and please, please
provide them as PDFs so they can be downloaded and printed).
Last edited by RossG on Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Is age an excuse? Eighty-one and counting.
Programming powered by coffee and nicotine.

sritcp
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Re: Better site

Post by sritcp » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:23 pm

Nothing prevents the community from coming up with its own (unofficial) LiveCode website.
(LiveCodeCommunity.org, LearnLiveCode.com, LiveCodeIsGreat.com)
It could be a responsive website built with LiveCode!
It can link, where necessary, to the relevant pages of the mothership website.
We can invite website design suggestions and choose one collectively.

Regards,
Sri

richmond62
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Re: Better site

Post by richmond62 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:38 pm

As long as I can remember the complaint about the
learning tools provided for any programming language
has been that they show you how to make the "bits" but
not how to put them together to produce a useful programme.
Well; why does that sound like a load of people who aren't actually prepared to make the effort
to learn computer programming?

If one has a bit of persistence, is not hopelessly stupid, and gets on with things,
there is no reason whatsoever that one cannot get Livecode to make useful
programmes without being spoon-fed . . .

. . . Ah, but wait a minute; I come from the generation where we didn't all
"want it now with the minimum of effort, and as dumbed-down as possible".

Stop whining!

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