What is old is new again...

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bogs
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What is old is new again...

Post by bogs » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:45 pm

I managed to get an express edition of Lc 2.2.1 for linux with greatly appreciated assistance (you know who you are, and I really can't thank you enough for that!!). I must say, a LOT about this is really awesome, and comparing the editions I now run has really been an enlightening experience, mostly in the 'whats changed and what hasn't' areas.

One thing I immediately noticed is that the older versions were really geared towards helping people learn the environment and language in a number of ways that don't really exist anymore. Some of what I consider to be the 'standout' features include (but are not limited to, and in no particular order) -
  1. Tips -
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    this can be set to pop up in any number of ways, or not at all. FANTASTIC feature I could not find any way to enable in current (6-8) versions.
  2. Documentation -
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    The main documentation window. While the newer versions have a form of this, they are all sadly lacking in ease of use compared to this form of the documentation. Documentation you can search like you would the dictionary, documentation by category (beats the pdf hands down), really incredibly useful ways to search for something and actually find what your looking for.
  3. Examples Cookbook (!!) -
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    Priceless having examples that actually work and are well explained.
  4. Trouble Shooting -
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    Priceless, simple concise explanations about why things might not be working.
  5. Glossary - self explanatory greatness.
  6. Tool Palette -
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    drop down menus for controls that can be set up many ways, like the button, scrollbar, option menus, allowing you to skip having to go to the inspector to set the option of which you want.
  7. Script Editor -
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    no tabs, but has a form of autocomplete. From my point of view, for new users, it lets new users learn about the language and new terms by telling them what is available for a given set of letters. This feature has been re-introduced after going missing a LONG time.
  8. Many more platforms stand alone settings -
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    Obviously this edition was only intended for (Novell) Linux, which is where I'm using it from, however you can get an idea of just how many other platforms were available at the time. I still work with a number of these, and sure wish I had the engines to target for them now.
Some things I think the newer versions had that I really miss when in the older versions -
  1. Minor - tabs in the script editor - I actually don't miss this feature as much as I initially thought I might, since the scripts all open in a new window, but sometimes I forget that heh.
  2. Not so minor - Shortcuts such as 'ctrl + enter' to apply a script.
  3. Project Browser - I see now why so many of the 'longer than I users' are always talking about the application browser, and I do find that useful for somethings, but I tend to use the PB far and away more often.
  4. Minor - Tool Palette - having the control you select dragging to the stack instead of having to free draw it. Just nice to have, to get similar in the older IDE you can use the message box to create a button, but you loose that nice drop down menu feature.
  5. Not so minor - Behaviors, although I haven't explored these extensively, I do understand their value as an addition to the language, thank you in large part to Jacque's useful and thorough explanations. A form of this is available in 2.2.1, but not in the same way as later editions.
I've only been using this a short time at this point, but those are the things that jump out at me. Any thoughts about things we have lost/gained ?
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ValiantCuriosity
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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by ValiantCuriosity » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:03 pm

Fantastic comparisons of the versions. Although, I've never really learned LC, I certainly enjoyed reading your thoughtful comparison.

Thanks,
-Rachel
May I never be cured of my curiosity! :D

bogs
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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by bogs » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:51 am

Thank you for the kind words.

I find it too bad that the documentation aspect of these can't be exported, as I am sure it would lessen the learning curve and pain for newcomers to the language. I know I would have loved to use it myself when I started, it might have cut my number of attempts by a LOT :)

I hope your finding it easier to get around in Lc now, though. Remember, any questions you have should be promptly answered if we can, you almost never should feel like your going it alone here.
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richmond62
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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by richmond62 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:11 pm

the documentation aspect of these can't be exported
I don't know what makes you think that . . .

I just copied the "help" folder from RunRev 2.2.1 to my desktop [ Xubuntu 17.10 64-bit ] and opened the revdocumentation.rev stack inwith that folder with LiveCode 8.1.8 . . .

I got a "funny" message about recursion, but, presumably, nothing that cannot be ironed out.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gs129eoox7vc1 ... 1.zip?dl=0
Last edited by richmond62 on Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bogs
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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by bogs » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:27 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:11 pm
the documentation aspect of these can't be exported
I don't know what makes you think that . . .
What makes me think that is that before vers. 6.0.1 the IDE wasn't open sourced, so the versions I'm referring to I assume the code can not be copied out and converted for use with the open version legitimately, not that it can not be done technically.

Technically, there is not much of a problem from what I saw, and as you demonstrated.

Anyone having a version prior to 6.0.1 I am sure can just copy/paste it to any other place they want, or even go through the code and implement what they find as needed, but I don't think that I could copy it and use it to further development of another IDE, whether a flavor of Lc or not, without permissions from the owner of the code (namely the RR/Lc mothership).

Mc's IDE even when Mc put it out was set up slightly different, at least from what I read. The instructional screens point blank tell you how to go about modifying the base stacks of the IDE and how to put them to your own use.

Of course, since the IDE stacks are now all oss, it kind of gives you carte blanche to do as you wish, and I assume with certain aspects of the current Lc IDE which do not have proprietary code.

I may be completely wrong on that count, that is just my take on what I read in the licensing.
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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by richmond62 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:46 pm

legitimately, not that it can not be done technically.
Aha: well, you did not explain that explicitly so it was ambiguous.

I would recommend, if you are serious about adapting that (i.e. changing all the refs to 'transcript' and 'revolution' to 'livecode') you send a private request to LiveCode Central. I, for one, cannot see why they should object as anything that opens LiveCode up to more users has to be in their interest.

bogs
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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by bogs » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:04 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:46 pm
I, for one, cannot see why they should object as anything that opens LiveCode up to more users has to be in their interest.
Yah, I can't either, but we both know they had autocomplete at the time, and it disappeared (how many times has that been asked for??) until recently, they had an incredible amount of help available, it got reduced, they had user addable notes as recently as 7.x, but it looks like those are going/gone, and tons of other stuff I would think were good features you'd want to keep and improve, so I don't know.

It tells me I'm not a good corporate guesser :D
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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by richmond62 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:08 pm

It tells me I'm not a good corporate guesser
It makes me thing that inspite of all their rhetoric LiveCode don't really give much thought
to learners who are auto-didacts.

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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by richmond62 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:22 pm

While the RunRev 2.2.1 Linux only (the standalone builder is crippled so it can only build 32-bit Linux standalones) release was FREE that would suggest (?) that, while it is not open source, parts of it could be hived off into a sort of "Learning Superstack" which could be distributed for FREE.

Obviously at this point we need the good offices of Richard Gaskin . . .

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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by richmond62 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:39 pm

I have sent a request to that effect to the LiveCode support team via the LiveCode website.

bogs
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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by bogs » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:25 pm

I think the keywords above are -
richmond62 wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:22 pm
it is not open source
I have had many IDEs that were distributed free of charge, but of course their creators would frown on my poking around inside of them since they were not 'open' (at least, not intentionally open heh).

Of course, IF they agree to allowing it, I'll be happy to poke around in there and ripping its guts out for other things :twisted:
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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by FourthWorld » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:08 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:22 pm
While the RunRev 2.2.1 Linux only (the standalone builder is crippled so it can only build 32-bit Linux standalones) release was FREE that would suggest (?) that, while it is not open source, parts of it could be hived off into a sort of "Learning Superstack" which could be distributed for FREE.

Obviously at this point we need the good offices of Richard Gaskin . . .
Thanks, Richmond. Yes, AFAIK the only edition of v2.2.1 is under proprietary license, and I'm unsure what would be needed to re-release a copy as GPL.

Because the engine source from that period hasn't been vetted for GPL compliance, I'm fairly certain that if they were to release anything at all from that version as GPL it would be limited to the IDE.

But even then, since the IDE was designed for the license enforcement the engine used at the time, I fear it may require rework to not only separate it from the engine for release, but also to remove any license dependencies and verbage not compliant with the GPL.

On the one hand we can all agree that it's great to see an interest in this sort of software archaeology, but on the other hand it may require a level of effort from the copyright owner that would take time away from other priorities, making it more challenging to do it in a way that's legally unambiguous.

I've dropped a note to Kevin asking his opinion on this, and hopefully he'll chime in here.
Richard Gaskin
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bogs
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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by bogs » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:27 pm

Thank you, it is a 'sticky wicket' as it were.

(Not) surprisingly, a great deal of the information contained in those stacks was contributed by (you guessed it) a certain plucky young lad named Richard Gaskin :mrgreen:
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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by richmond62 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:44 pm

re-release a copy as GPL
As RunRev 2.2.1 was released both a FREE (as in it cost no money) and Proprietary (Copyrighted)
I don't really see why it has to be GPLed (there's a funky verb).

Surely (?) parts of the IDE can be given away free (as in no money BUT still copyright)
either "as is" or having been wrapped into some 'Superstack'
and edited to reflect stuff such as the fact that no-one except those of us
who are long-in-the-tooth will understand what is meant by 'transcript'.

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Re: What is old is new again...

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:04 am

Without using a standard license they'd need to invent one.

And without using GPL as that standard license, folks using the GPL-governed Community Edition would have difficulty knowing for sure what they can and cannot do with it.
Richard Gaskin
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