Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Getting into LiveCode for iOS? Ask your questions here.

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thatkeith
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Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by thatkeith » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:27 pm

I have a LiveCode business license so I can (when I get my poor aching head around it) build apps for mobile devices in the closed-source format that Apple requires. But I'm considering teaching the basics of creating apps (both to my students directly and as a fresh series of how-to magazine articles), and it would be *superb* if there was a way to just test apps on the LiveCode user's own device, even if they are created using the Community version of LiveCode.

Is this possible?
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Re: Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by bogs » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:42 pm

You mean something like this?
Selection_003.png
Lock and sideLoad!
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Re: Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by FourthWorld » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:17 pm

For the 80% running Android there is no problem, and it's super easy to sideload.

For iOS, Apple's limit on downloads conflicts with the terms of LC Community Edition's GPL license.

Given the unique use case here, being for education, I would encourage you to contact support AT LiveCode.com to see if they can find a reasonable way to get LC Community Plus, or some other non-GPL alternative, available for your classes.
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Re: Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by thatkeith » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:55 pm

I've not heard of Community Plus – I'll see if that's viable and a possibility for my face-to-face 'day job' teaching.

But I'm also looking at writing a series of tutorials for publication in a tech mag, and that's the more pressing concern right now. I'm not trying to find a way for people to dodge the App Store for actual deployment, but if there's a way they can build and test on their own device with the regular Community edition that would be *great*!
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Re: Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by thatkeith » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:58 pm

FourthWorld wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:17 pm
For iOS, Apple's limit on downloads conflicts with the terms of LC Community Edition's GPL license.
Sorry Richard, could you expand on that? I'm aware of the general problem of Community builds being open source and the App Store requiring everything to be closed source. What's the download limit issue? :?
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Re: Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:07 am

thatkeith wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:58 pm
FourthWorld wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:17 pm
For iOS, Apple's limit on downloads conflicts with the terms of LC Community Edition's GPL license.
Sorry Richard, could you expand on that? I'm aware of the general problem of Community builds being open source and the App Store requiring everything to be closed source. What's the download limit issue? :?
AFAIK Apple does not prohibit open source software. If I'm mistaken I certainly wouldn't mind reading the portion of their TOS I missed.

With the GPL specifically, the issue is that the standard license guarantees unlimited distribution of the software, while Apple's app store limits the number of downloads per account. So while Apple does not prohibit open source as a concept, and other license terms like MIT seem fine in their app store, their terms are logically incompatible with the GPL.
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Re: Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by jacque » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:03 pm

Apple's app store limits the number of downloads per account.
Do you mean Apple's Enterprise license? That has a limit, as well as restrictions on who can download.

I never have quite understood how OSS software is a problem for the App Store so I just took LC's word for it.
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Re: Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:39 pm

I searched Duck Duck Go for "open source apple app store" and found these:

What's the issue? The GPLv2 license doesn't allow someone to impose further restrictions on the code than outlined in the original licensor agreement. The GPLv2 also doesn't allow restrictions on usage. On the other hand, the Apple App Store terms of service prohibits usage as defined in the list of rules: If an activity does not appear on the list, a user is not allowed to employ the App Store application in that way.

In effect, in the context of a GPLv2 license, an Apple App Store item that abides by Apple's terms of service is deemed to be restricting usage and imposing further limitation on usage rights than were envisioned by the original licensor of the open source code.
https://www.infoworld.com/article/26233 ... don-t.html

... the Free Software Foundation (FSF) agreed with Denis-Courmont that the GPLv2 does, indeed, conflict with Apple's App Store ToS. In a note to the VLC membership list, Brett Smith, FSF Licensing Compliance Engineer, wrote that because "Apple 'only' allows you to do the activities in the list of Usage Rules, if an activity does not appear in this list, you're not allowed to do it at all."
https://www.zdnet.com/article/no-gpl-ap ... app-store/

An iPhone port of GNU Go is currently being distributed through Apple's App Store. However, this distribution is not in compliance with the GNU GPL. The primary problem is that Apple imposes numerous legal restrictions on use and distribution of GNU Go through the iTunes Store Terms of Service, which is forbidden by section 6 of GPLv2. So today we have written to Apple and asked them to come into compliance. We would be happy to see Apple distribute these programs under the GPL's terms, but unfortunately, it seems much more likely that they'll simply make the problem go away by removing GNU Go from the App Store.

(Unfortunately, instead of amending their terms of service to work with the GNU GPL, Apple have decided to remove GNU Go from the App Store. Please read our follow up report)
https://www.fsf.org/news/2010-05-app-store-compliance
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Re: Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by jacque » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:50 pm

I see. So the fact that you can only distribute through Apple's single channel is the restriction, at least on mobile.

Apple does allow Mac desktop apps to be distributed outside the Mac App Store so I'd imagine those would comply.
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Re: Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by thatkeith » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:15 am

But is it possible to test an LC app made with the Community build in one's own iPhone?
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Re: Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:57 am

thatkeith wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:15 am
But is it possible to test an LC app made with the Community build in one's own iPhone?
Given the license incompatibility, I don't believe the Community Edition builds for iOS, does it?

In v7 (I keep that Community Edition installed for Raspberry Pi) the iOS pane of the Standalone Builder has a notice about the license incompatibility explaining why the options there are disabled.

I haven't check in a more recent Community Edition version.
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Re: Can I run OS/Community builds on my own device?

Post by thatkeith » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:36 pm

FourthWorld wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:57 am
I haven't check in a more recent Community Edition version.
Hah! That would be a definitive answer – thanks! I downloaded LC Community 9.0.2 – and it looks like it IS possible to build for iOS with Community, although my understanding is that Apple won't allow the result to be on the App Store.

I was able to set the Standalone Application Settings to iOS only and attempt a build. It balked during the build attempt because I don't have "the iOS SDK 12.0 configured" which *seems* to indicate that the limitation is at Apple's end.

If anyone has any more specific info I'm keen to hear it, but right now it looks like I could plan some tutorials that include pointers to *testing* iOS experiments in both the simulator and the user's own device. I hope.
It'll be great if that is true! That feels like a much more compelling argument for getting into LC.

(Next step: actually getting iOS builds working in my own setup. The hoop-jumping requirements hurt my head...)
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