Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

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DevBoyLars
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Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by DevBoyLars » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:30 pm

Hi there,
is there any really successfully paid iOS A++ App out there, which was build with LiveCode, yet?

I mean RunRev celebrates themselves a few times since LiveCode 7 released and a few times on LC6 and now the big course is out there with big promises of potential success in business - but where a the real-life examples?

I've NEVER seen or heard about an App which is beautiful, successful and high rated in the AppStore..

So please, help me, is there any App? Just one?

I would be glad to see one :)

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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by Mikey » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:57 pm

Well, I don't write for the great unwashed masses. I write for businesses, but I'd say that mine have been well-received.

And then some.

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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:56 pm

The About page at LiveCode.com has a link to their Showcase:
http://livecode.com/showcase/

The current Showcase is a very small subset of the apps made with LC, and the web team is in the process of enhancing that and other parts of the site as I write that. But at least you can see a small sampling of some of the things people have been making with the tool.

The About page also contains a link to awards LiveCode itself has earned:
http://livecode.com/about/awards/
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DevBoyLars
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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by DevBoyLars » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:21 pm

Again: I'm searching for an A++ App which is big in business, not this kind of stuff, which is for some niches.

I mean popular Apps like them, which are build with such as Xamarin or in C.

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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by FourthWorld » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:02 pm

Xamarin is an IDE for C#, which is ranked 5th on the TIOBE index. C is ranked #1 there. While LiveCode often appears in the TIOBE index, the further down the index you go the number of apps made with it is much smaller. For comparison, Visual Basic, heavily promoted as the go-to solution by one of the largest and most powerful companies in the world. has 1/15 the number of users of C, currently used by just 1.074% of developers, according to TIOBE.
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/ ... index.html

In the iOS app store, half of all revenue goes to just 100 developers, with the majority of the remainder to the top 1000. Most apps in both app stores are pulling in between minimum wage and zero, with an estimated 30% of all apps in the iOS app store never having been downloaded at all.

These comparative estimates are useful here in illustrating the logarithmic scope of language use.

With LiveCode having been open source for less than two years, it'll be some time before we see adoption likely to place it in the top 50 on TIOBE.

In the meantime, we see thousands of app built with LC each year, many of which are very successful commercial products, some of those included on the list I provided the link for.

But it's been estimated that 95% of code is written for use rather than for sale; that is, in-house tools companies depend on, but which are not products sold to others. Right now a majority of the projects I'm working on are in this category, one of them for one of the largest privately-held companies in the US. I have a friend who's written LiveCode apps for the Department of Homeland Security and the Texas State Department of Corrections, and these are just a few. Like Mikey wrote of his work, the apps I'm delivering for my clients represent strong value to them, but like most apps written in any language these won't appear in any app store.

Given that a slender minority of apps written in any language are commercial products, and that we have a large and ever-growing range of programming languages available, I doubt you'll find any high-level language not already in the top 20 on the TIOBE list represented among the top 20 apps in either app store.

And given the unique value LiveCode brings to the programming world, I'd be surprised if we don't see it in the top 20 on the TIOBE list one day. But that'll take some time.

So in the here-and-now, I can point you to commercially successful software products and mission-critical in-house tools that deliver strong ROI for business owners.

If you're looking for something more I'd have to ask:

By what measurable criteria would you define "A++"?
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Dixie
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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by Dixie » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:14 pm

devBoyLars...

How do 'you' define a successful app ?... by how much money it might have made ?... how many times it has been downloaded ?... or maybe how pleased a small group of people are to have a particular app ?

DevBoyLars
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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by DevBoyLars » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:48 pm

I think "A++" should be easy to understand ;)

I stop using LiveCode now...


- everything takes to long
- no good results from RunRev
- AutoScale feature is useless for professional usage (no one needs geometric deformation or borders)
- still no nativ look for iOS or Android
- ... (the list is long)


Yes, I know - everbody screems now "Nooooo.. with the next version of LiveCode everything will be sooooo much better" - ehm.. no?! LC 6 > 7... bad AutoScale + UniCode? Wow... x_x

Time to set a break and wake up. Yes, every other programming-language will be harder to learn, but that's ok, if the App geht's quality at the end.

So good look for the never-ending-wait and the dream of high quality-apps with a (still) not working system.

PS: Before anyone comment this.. not needed until you can show me ONE(!) A++ App which is successfully in the AppStore (Top 100)

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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by Dixie » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:31 pm

DevBoyLars...

Why must you 'run down' liveCode ?... the question you should ask yourself is... 'Am I good enough to write an app that would appear in the top lists of the app store ?', as it seems that you think your shortcomings will be perhaps lessened by using a language that has produced an app that has climbed to the top of the tree..

Well my friend.. I have had one, it is called 'TickerTape' and for a few days in 2012 it climbed to 12th in the UK app store... it was seen on TV for a few seconds being used by an athlete at the london olympics... I am still amazed today as it still gets downloaded 40-50 times a month... I have never tried any advertising whatsoever...

good luck to you, I think you will need it !
Last edited by Dixie on Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by FourthWorld » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:50 pm

DevBoyLars wrote:I think "A++" should be easy to understand ;)
One might think so, until we search for "A++ app" and find things like this:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/a++/id355651036?mt=8
DevBoyLars wrote:...show me ONE(!) A++ App which is successfully in the AppStore (Top 100)
Thank you for quantifying what you mean by "A++."

I can show you individuals and organizations making money with LiveCode, including some uncommonly successful companies.

But there are currently 1.2 million apps in the iOS app store. I don't think you'll find LiveCode or most other popular languages in the top 0.000083333 percentile there yet, though the night is young.

Getting an app into the top 100 has far less to do with the language used to program it than business strategy, capital investment, and marketing.

To help us better understand your expectations, can you tell us what percentage of the apps in the iOS Top 100 were made with Xamarin? With a staff size several times larger than RunRev's, $54 million raised in their latest funding round, and Microsoft's strong support I'd imagine they're doing pretty well. 50%? 20%? 10%?
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newtronsols
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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by newtronsols » Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:28 pm

Dixie wrote:DevBoyLars...

Why must you 'run down' liveCode ?... the question you should ask yourself is... 'Am I good enough to write an app that would appear in the top lists of the app store ?', as it seems that you think your shortcomings will be perhaps lessened by using a language that has produced an app that has climbed to the top of the tree..

Well my friend.. I have had one, it is called 'TickerTape' and for a few days in 2012 it climed to 12th in the UK app store... it was seen on TV for a few seconds being used by an athlete at the london olympics... I am still amazed today as it still gets downloaded 40-50 times a month... I have never tried any advertising whatsoever...

good luck to you, I think you will need it !
Took a look - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/tickert ... 90215?mt=8
excellent simple idea - you have an audience that wants it to work iPhone6 & instructions?

DevBoyLars
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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by DevBoyLars » Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:32 pm

Sure, around 25% in the current Top 100 Apps are build with Xamarin. Why? Because it's easier to build for multiple plattforms and you can design your screen for multiple-resolutions without(!!!) geometric deformations much much faster without special code or something like that, which is needed in LiveCode.

I know some of the DevTeams behind the Top 100 Apps and the most use Xamarin and some uses the new Swift, which would be my choice after LiveCode.

I'm very dissapointed and I'm not alone. I talked to a lot of people who think the same about RunRev and LiveCode development in the last month/years. It's a shame what RunRev sell as auto-scale and how people get messed around with "The Course". RunRev shows Apple Apps and rebuild them step by step, as far as good to learn LiveCode, BUT no one talks about the real problems, the things that help build A++ (btw: This is an international designation for high-quality, not only for Apps..) which are not possible in LiveCode without more expense as in every other language.

What kind of help is a programming-language, which is easy to use in syntax, but you need so much more time to build a beautiful nativ-looking App for every screen-resolution?

Please do not take it amiss, but I've never seen an App, which is build in LiveCode, which is not ugly - never. They all looks like they would build by lil childs or persons, who never heard about design.

But it's not why the people, who build this Apps, don't want to build better Apps - they just can't in LiveCode and that's the point.

I remember Kickstarter.. nativ iOS/Android-look, (working) auto-scale (w/o geometric deformation), better/new IDE, bla bla... and what we get? Yes, LiveCode 6 with a new name called "7", a half-hearted auto-scale, no nativ-look, no modern/better-IDE, ...

LiveCode 8 should be better? No, I don't think so. Yes, maybe you'll be able to use the SDK directly within LiveCode, but what does this mean? Yes, WE have to build everything like native-look, working geometric-auto-scale.. BAD!

Yes, LiveCode is nice for kids and for niches and co, but for real business? No, it's too late RunRev.. Mobile-App-Business startet (again) in 2008 - it is 2015 now and LiveCode missed the point (far).



Again for all who really want to get the chance for an upcoming good looking App:

Don't spend more time and money for something that will never happens. The time you wait for a better LiveCode or to design your App, to get a nativ look and a working design for every possible screen-size - stop it & forget it.

Invest a few weeks of time with good video-training and/or some books, decide what platforms you really need and come on with Swift (http://developer.apple.com/swift), which is free(!) or Xamarin (http://xamarin.com) which gives you all platforms and more features for the same price like LiveCode.

It's your choice - have a nice day :)

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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:04 am

DevBoyLars wrote:Sure, around 25% in the current Top 100 Apps are build with Xamarin.
Thanks. It would be nice to be able to follow that progress over time - how can we learn which apps were made with Xamarin?
Because it's easier to build for multiple plattforms and you can design your screen for multiple-resolutions without(!!!) geometric deformations much much faster without special code or something like that, which is needed in LiveCode.
In another thread you noted that Chipp Walters' altMobileResizer worked well for that. Were you aware that altMobileResizer was written in LiveCode?

Just as Chipp showed, with LiveCode's pixelScale property, resizeStack message, and other language elements like the new 9-way stretch, it's possible to handle nearly any layout on just about every device. But it will take some scripting.

If Xamarin is able to handle layouts in which some objects are scaled proportionately, others disproportionally, with both orientations and across all iOS and Android devices without ever having to give it instructions to do so I'd agree that would be a pretty amazing tool.
I know some of the DevTeams behind the Top 100 Apps and the most use Xamarin and some uses the new Swift, which would be my choice after LiveCode.
I like many things about Swift's design but it seems unlikely Apple will release it for use on other platforms, and since most of the profitable apps are cross-platform I wouldn't want to leave the other 80% of the mobile audience out of my business plans.

Any language choice involves trade-offs; none of them is a magic pony that does everything best, which is why there are so many of them.

Those of us for whom the tradeoffs with LiveCode are a good fit very much enjoy it, and our clients enjoy the high ROI we deliver.

But the world is full of many great tools, so there's no need to limit oneself to any single one of them.

I wish you the best in your endeavors with whatever tool you use.
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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by DevBoyLars » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:12 am

What is this 9-way-thing and how to use it?

And what about native look for iOS and Android?

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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:22 am

DevBoyLars wrote:What is this 9-way-thing and how to use it?
See the centerRect property in the Dictionary. The Release Notes from the build it premiered in may be helpful as well:
http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ ... 0_rc_2.pdf
And what about native look for iOS and Android?
Themes for native appearance and more are listed on the Roadmap as among those elements dependent on the new Open Language initiative, coming in v8:
http://livecode.com/community/roadmap/

I haven't heard a specific release date for v8 yet, but it's currently the focus for most of the engineering team and a preview build should be available in the coming weeks.
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Re: Is there any really successfully App build with LC?

Post by DevBoyLars » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:10 am

Thank you.

Will it be possible in LC8 to access a SDK, while it's in beta (new iOS comes up) to implement new hardware-features to get the App released at the same time the new iOS will be available to consumers?

If I want to build an App which should run on every mobile-device (smartphone/tablet) and the tablet should get more features because of the more space, I've to build 4 screens (smartphone & tablet portrait + phone & tablet landscape) - like in every other language.

If I want to script the reposition of my navbar and tabbar by myself, can I combine it with LC's autoscale? Would it makes sense?

And if LiveCode or my script resizes the card to the screen-size with the right positions of the elements, would everything pixel-perfect on every device?

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